Don’t know what to say about my best friend’ crappy husbands?

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I have two really close, life long friends who I adore. They are clever, hard working successful women who are wonderful mothers.
My closest friend, we talk every day and have for almost 30 years, doesn’t have a great husband. He’s fine, not actively a bad man, but he is selfish. We are in lockdown, they both work full time, but he states his job is stressful so locks himself in the home office and doesn’t come out, leaving all domestic duties, home school and work to her. We had a wine zoom planned, she couldn’t commit because she couldn’t ask him to put their kids to bed. On a Saturday at 8:30pm.
My other friends husband is the same but he also drinks too much and writes himself off for the next day meaning she also has to cancel plans whenever he is supposed to be supervising the kids, or has to bring them to places because he’s in bed hungover.

These women are not happy or respected by their partners. But they also accept it and want to talk about how annoyed they are with them and how unfair it is. But would never leave them. I find these conversations so hard to take.

My husband isn’t like this. We both do the chores, we both feel completely comfortable when the other has the kids. I think that is normal and how adults should be. We aren’t perfect of course but it doesn’t feel unfair.

I don’t know what to say to my friends when they start complaining. I feel enraged at what they’re putting up with and I find it hard to not say something that would damage our friendship (like: “your husband is a dick!”).

So I don’t say anything and just get off the phone. But then I want them to feel supported. They’ve both invited us to go on holiday with them as families. I do not want to spend time with their husbands and the dynamic that they have as glorified domestic slaves.

AIBU to not be more supportive? I find the way that sometimes groups of women get to the complaining about their husbands part of the conversation very depressing.

I agree with @Mynextname. The majority of men exploit women to some degree. If you have a relationship where it is truly 50/50, then that's fab for you, but ime most men don't pull their weight. So, yes, your friends' husbands sound shit, but it's not necessarily the case that they could have chosen a relationship with someone who did pull their weight equally as there aren't many men out there who do.

And of course the inequalities in relationships often don't become apparent until after you have children. Then the women faces an unpalatable choice...put up with it or break up the family and become a single parent (which is hard!!!). It's not surprising that some women choose to put up with husbands who are just a bit shit (as opposed to actively unpleasant and abusive), especially as getting the financials and logistical arrangements in place for Ieaving can feel like an uphill struggle if you're already doing everything. When are they meant to organise their exit? Maybe your friends are biding their time until the kids are older. One human being can only deal with so much.

Total nonsense! Peddling that kind of shut is what keeps women in relationships with useless men. There are PLENTY of men out there who pull their weight. Of all of the couples I know I’d say at least 80% of them do and almost all of them do way more than OPs friends husband who would be better with even 70:30 than the 99:1 situation she’s in now

I would call it out. I couldn’t stop myself.

‘Honestly X your DH is a total shit and I haven’t a clue why you just put up with it and accept it. There are lots of men who pull their weight and manage to work and actually parent, they aren’t magical unicorns. Your DH is just totally SHIT but at this point you’re kind of enabling him by staying with him so either leave him or stop complaining about it.’

However, I should add I don’t have many long term (10 year+) friends and I suspect my saying things like this is why.

@Nanananani. It's not nonsense. If you look at the UK figures, women took on the bulk of homeschooling and chores during lockdown.

This is so much more than an issue with individual men. Pretending that it is a problem confined to a few 'bad apples' does women a disservice because it implies that they could have avoided it by choosing a partner more wisely.

@Nanananani perhaps it is an area, class and cultural thing too. The area I currently live in there seems to be many more men that do their bit but still not the majority although they do tend to work full time (middle class area).

The area I grew up in and I am still connected to (deprived council estate), I don't know of a single man that does the housework or regularly watches their own kids. Most of the women feel relieved if their partners get a part time job.

Your description of your first friend describes one of my friends to a tee. They might even be the same person. It’s so depressing. Every few months she will come to me upset about the same things but I know she will never ever leave him.

I saw an article recently by a relationship therapist which said that men (and women) have been brought up to think that a stressed out, disgruntled, unsatisfied, ‘nagging’ wife is normal, which is why conversations with these kinds of husbands never seem to make a difference. Look at pretty much any sitcom and any number of TV shows (Marge Simpson immediately springs to mind) and you’ll find the dynamic between useless husbands and long-suffering wives played for laughs. These kinds of people think an unhappy wife is just how marriage is.

I’m in a Facebook group with hundreds of women for a hobby of mine, and once a woman posted an off-topic post moaning about her husband. Cue dozens of sympathetic posts from other women about how their husbands just ‘don’t see mess’ or ‘he’ll help out if I ask him but I have to leave him exact instructions’ or ‘I let him do the laundry once and he turned everything pink, haha what are they like!’. I was one of two or three women who piped up to say this wasn’t acceptable and that I would be decidedly unimpressed if my husband was this lazy and incompetent (thankfully he isn’t!) but it fell on deaf ears.

All we can do is to keep pointing out that it’s not OK and try to non-smugly make it clear that our own husbands don’t act like this, to try to drive home that it’s not how all marriages are. But when it gets too much I think it’s ok to gently say ‘I’m sorry, I can’t listen to this any more right now, I am getting too upset for you’ and hopefully that might make them think too.

I think like attracts like. So if you have an equal relationship you will probably have/attract friends who do too. Also your family may have role modelled this for you.

I have seen comments like nana's on here before and while I don't disbelieve them, my experience is that there are many many relationships like the OP's friends' and very few like the OPs'.

I have an equal-ish relationship but it takes a lot of work to keep it so and I can't say I can look to any other relationship at all as a role model. I am nearly 50, educated, in a professional career. I have not met one other couple with a genuinely equal division of labour. Even when the men are "hands-on", it is always, always the woman doing the thinking ahead.

Actually that's not true. I do know a few gay couples without this power imbalance.

It's sad how so many women are brainwashed in marriage when it comes to looking after the DC.
You really can't say anything even if they ask you, they're not going to dump them on your advice only cause a rift in the friendship.

Maybe their is a socio economic element I hadn’t thought through. And I didn’t mean 50:50 of every specific task, just 50:50 as a whole. Yes many women did more homeschooling but for those I knew that’s because the worked part time or we furloughed. For the majority of our friends both partners work full time and shared the burden in a way that suited them.

Relationships are complicated

My friend often talks about her lazy arse of a husband. But she doesn't want to leave. So I nod and smile, and listen. I think she just wants to vent

I’m just n a similar position with a couple of friends OP. One of them is married to a selfish alcoholic, the other to an emotionally stunted bully. Neither are in a position to leave.

I just try to bring a little lightness to their lives, though I do sometimes feel like I’m partly enabling them to stay put in these crappy situations because I don’t raise it unless they do. It’s definitely put a damper on our friendships - their crappy marriages become the elephant in the room: what’s the point in talking about holidays or plans or whatever, when we both know her husband's pissed at home every day from lunchtime onwards, and all her energy goes towards protecting the kids and trying to do the work of two parents? Neither of them do that «aren’t men hopeless?» complaining thing, both of them know this isn’t normal.

Idk. I love and value my friends, I try to just keep off the subject until they raise it. I don’t lie about my own (gem of a) husband and pretend he’s bad in some way though.

I had a friend that whinged constantly
Issues with abusve daughter - listened patiently for years, gave advice & trips to hospital when needed. (I did get a bit irked when once she'd moved out and the violence finally stopped, she miraculously became the brilliant perfect daughter that could do not wrong).
Issues with workplace that she kept repeating with one role after another? Eventually just used to change the subject - would listen on repeat a couple of times with each new role, then change the subject & not engage.

If they want to whinge about their partners, change the subject & move on.

I think a lot of men would not bother having dc and see them as their wife's choice and therefore responsibility.
My dh was raised by a very old fashioned dm who thought women kept the house and men dug the garden.
However he was and is a very hands on df and dgf. He happily cooks and probably does more in the home now than I do.
Men don't have to perpetuate stereotypes.
My dh chose to be a different/better type of husband.

nana it just all seems 'just the way it is' doesn't it? It 'makes sense' for the women to do more homeschooling because they work pt. It 'makes sense' for them to work pt because 'he earns so much more' or 'childcare is so expensive'. It 'makes sense' for her to do XYZ task because 'she's good at it/knows where it is/the school phoned her/he's so busy at work'.

No-one will blame him. Plenty of people will blame her.

It is fecking exhausting fighting the patriarchy!

Mmm - when I moan my friend says to me "well he's not going to change is he ? "

Nothing's going to change until you change it.

I think a lot of people have low self esteem and few aspirations .Coping with a selfish,unloving partner sadly gives them a role to play and a purpose in life .

My close friend once told me her partner called her names when they argued, and added she thought it was normal. I said no, I don’t think that’s normal or acceptable, do you? She didn’t of course, and eventually left him, but I know she found that challenge helpful in making her decision.

I don’t think it’s my job as a friend never to challenge and I always will when I can, kindly and with support. I would ask your friend ‘how does it feel when he shuts himself away/you do bedtimes every day’ etc. There can be a horrible imbalance and we can support our friends to come to terms with this themselves.

Also - I was invited on holiday with a family like this and refused being totally honest with them, i said ‘I like you very much and our kids get on well but your husband can boss you around and demean you and I don’t want to be around that, happy to go away with just you and kids.’

It sounds like they just want to vent and don't want any solutions. So all you need to do is be a listening ear. But it's obviously hard to swallow that kind of bullshit. I also have an incredible partner, incredible in comparison to other shit men lol. Like you say, the bar seems so low for a lot of people that he's practically a god compared to those ignorant, misogynistic, selfish, low key abusive types.

I think you need to be honest, gently and factually, as you have been here. Say that you find it difficult to know what to say, as you can see her husband is lazy and selfish and is not going to change.

Say that your home life is not like that, so you're not able to offer like-minded commiserations, though you do feel sympathetic towards her and recognise that she's having a difficult time.

Say that you don't want to go on holiday with them, because you don't like her husband's selfishness and the way he expects her to do everything and being around that behaviour would make you angry and uncomfortable which is the opposite of being able to relax.

If you were expected to join in with a 'women do all the domestic work' dynamic (a self-catering holiday? women putting kids to bed while dads relax? men doing their own thing in the day, while women run a kids club?) you and your DH wouldn't play ball. How would that make her and her DH feel?

You can be honest without being unkind. Especially if you talk about your own feelings, less so your experiences, which could sound like gloating.

I can't believe the stereotype of marriage is "the ball and chain" and hating each other. How is that normal 😂

If leaving a relationship was as easy as ‘he is a dick. I’m kicking him out ‘ there would be no need for a relationship threads on MN.

From my own personal experience of not leaving a crap relationship, they need individual counselling, not couple counselling.
Thé issues here are varied and can. include fear, lack of self esteem, unhelpful views on divorce, pressure. from family etc etc.
They might also need someone to acknowledge that the way they see things is ok.
Eg Yes, I agree. When he is doing xxxx, it’s unacceptable.
My own experience is that people staying silent meant i thought they were actually thinking I was over. reacting. I needed to hear someone telling me I had good grounds to be upset.

@Mynextname that’s brilliant advice and insight. I completely agree with you.
Most of my friends, myself included, are in marriages or relationships with men, who don’t do their fair share of domestic chores and childcare, even though their wives work too. Venting to our friends, while seemingly disloyal to our partners, is a way to validate our feelings, where a partner may be dismissing them, to feel like we have backup and support, and to understand that we’re not alone. After these kind of chats with friends, I often feel a lot better and happier with my lot in life. I don’t want to leave my husband and raise my son in a single family. We have many happy days together. It is frustrating to be so unequal, but I work at us and myself everyday to make the balance more equal.
Looking around at all the couples I know, I’d be hard pressed to find a better situation.
Perhaps what you have is rarer than you think and you should feel blessed. Show compassion to your friends. Duck out of conversations that you don’t feel you can be a part of.

@lottiegarbanzo

I think you need to be honest, gently and factually, as you have been here. Say that you find it difficult to know what to say, as you can see her husband is lazy and selfish and is not going to change.

Say that your home life is not like that, so you're not able to offer like-minded commiserations, though you do feel sympathetic towards her and recognise that she's having a difficult time.

Say that you don't want to go on holiday with them, because you don't like her husband's selfishness and the way he expects her to do everything and being around that behaviour would make you angry and uncomfortable which is the opposite of being able to relax.

If you were expected to join in with a 'women do all the domestic work' dynamic (a self-catering holiday? women putting kids to bed while dads relax? men doing their own thing in the day, while women run a kids club?) you and your DH wouldn't play ball. How would that make her and her DH feel?

You can be honest without being unkind. Especially if you talk about your own feelings, less so your experiences, which could sound like gloating.

If someone had talked to me like that, I would have assumed I had lost a good friend and sharing my issues wasn't welcome.

I. have been on both sides of that situation. In. the. OP’s place, the first thing to do is to stop solving issues for the friend and to stop judging.
The way they organise their life isn’t her problem and shouldn’t have an impact if it doesn’t also mean she and her DH are expected to behave the same way.

I agree with Mynextname
It's not easy being a single parent, the majority of single mothers are viewed in a negative light whereas a single father is held in high regard for doing basic caring for his child.
I work with lots of married mothers.
During the pandemic and the whole home schooling debacle, the only women who did not ring in work saying they could not come in and needed time off were management. Even then some of them had th he get out of jail card if working from home. Ever other woman had to take emergency time odd to sort out their kids. Did their husbands? Hell no, their job was far too important.
There are numerous threads on here about child care and whenever it is suggested the child's father actually looks after their own child, it's met with a tumbleweed response.
Op- I would let them know their marriages are flawed just comment on one aspect. Let the thought sink in with your friends that their relationships are far from ideal.

I had this experience in one group I was in. Half the women going 'oh aren't men useless' and agreeing with each other, the other half thinking 'no they're not' and letting that sub-group get on with it.

I think it is important to say out loud 'that's not how it works in our house, we take turns doing x, y, z' so that that example exists for the others. But gloating or sounding superior about it would not help.

I hear you.however I think society is still so skewed towards couples and families, that many women accept this shit . They often feel unable to leave for financial reasons ,or feel they are breaking up the family .we have often been conditioned to put ourselves and our happiness last. I would say to be there for your chums but realise its not always as simple as ltb sadly