Today's ruling re Down's Syndrome

[Shirazboobaloo]

Sorry to hijack AIBU for this but can someone explain this ruling to me please?

What I can't understand (from press reports) is how this has "come to this".

Who is Heidi Crowther and who are those supporting her?

I am genuinely confused but don't know where to ask

I wouldn’t be horrified, I would feel nothing at all other than sadness for the family who had to make that decision the circumstances of which must have been awful

No one is saying it’s ok FFS. It’s a tragedy, for the mother and the child.

Well most people would be let's be honest. All she wants is for all babies to be treated the same regardless of being healthy or having any conditions. That's the point that's being missed. It should be full term or 24 weeks for all babies.

When it comes to abortion, I'm with Barack Obama: safe, legal and rare. I would add to that: but always an option

That was Hillary Clinton fyi.

Many people are outraged at the thought of a baby being aborted at a late stage, and with this particular case, on the grounds of significant disability, ie Downs Syndrome.

Women who are absolutely opposed to this are perfectly at liberty to continue the pregnancy but, in my view, they are not entitled to try and prevent the opposition of termination for other women.

I wonder how many of the people who object to late termination with particular reference to Downs Syndrome have borne children with this syndrome or worked with adults with Downs Syndrome. I wonder how many of them have campaigned for better facilities for people with disabilities or volunteered for organisations that offer help to Downs Syndrome children and adults and their carers.

As some people have attested here, looking after a profoundly disabled adult is a lifelong commitment and many older parents are very fearful of what will happen to their adult children when they are no longer around. The provision for older disabled people, particularly those that have very challenging behaviour, is variable and, in some cases, deficient. Concentrate on that, rather than try to force women who are not in a good place in their lives to bend to your will.

@Aberteifi

If you use the word but after saying your pro choice your not

That’s pretty ridiculous. I’m for the current law. I wouldn’t support termination of a healthy fetus past that point. Am I not pro-choice in your eyes?

If so, it’s a really extreme position

How many very late stage (beyond the 24 week mark) are we talking about?

Someone I know who had to terminate at the 14 week mark had been told that the best case with Downs Syndrome is that you get to take your baby home ie there is comorbidity with so many conditions incompatible with life that it is likely one would be picked up far before a late stage.

So would it be the case that termination at a very late stage would mainly be due to a mother not being previously aware of the pregnancy, and only then, with a diagnosis picked up by scan?

It would be a very difficult decision to make regardless, I very much doubt that someone would terminate just because of a ‘less than perfect’ baby.

Arguably, in the interests of equality (which is what I’ve perhaps naively understood this campaign is about) late term abortion should not be limited to babies with physical or cognitive disabilities, but be a choice for all women. As so many pp have said, the number of women ending their pregnancies at that late stage are tiny, and the decisions to do so are individual and undoubtedly horribly difficult.

I’m a little shocked to read so many comments reflecting devaluing and dismissive views about DS. Yes, women should absolutely be able to choose whether they have a baby with Downs, but in the same way they should be able to choose whether they go ahead with any pregnancy.

Yes, DS can bring with it numerous physical health problems. Yes, a (relatively small) proportion of ppl with DS have profound learning disabilities which mean they are dependent on carers. And mostly, the extent of these difficulties is not predictable during the pregnancy. It is a frightening thing, having a DS diagnosis, knowing your child will likely have a harder life than if she or he did not have that extra chromosome. And that your life will be harder too. But it’s not a given. And that child may be fulfilled, and lived, and loving. Life is an unknown. Having children is an unknown, whether they have DS or not.

There are posters here suggesting that current portrayals of DS are ‘too positive’ and that the difficult realities of life with DS are glossed over. If that was true I don’t think 90% of these pregnancies would end in termination.

@Heartofglass12345

I don't understand why people go on about the people who have Down's syndrome that struggle and have health issues/ learning disabilities. Any one of us could become disabled at any time and need 24 hour care with multiple health issues. People are born with learning disabilities/ autism which isn't picked up straight away.

Heidi is looking for equality for people like her, imagine knowing people are happy for someone like you to be murdered in the womb just because of a genetic condition. It should be the same for all babies, either 24 week cut off or any baby can be aborted right up until it's due date. It's eugenics!

There is a world of difference between the natural risk of a healthy person becoming disabled, and knowing that an unborn fetus will be. The two simply aren’t comparable.

Heidi is equal. There are no rights that I have which Heidi does not. However Heidi having DS does not mean she has any more right to dictate to a pregnant woman what she should do, than I do. Other people shouldn’t be forced to have disabled children to make her feel affirmed.

@Spink do you think that perhaps a women faced with the possibility of a Down syndrome child would might do some research?

The reality is often different to what is portrayed, I've seen it first hand and it's not easy for anyone.

UsedUpUsername
As someone who has had to make the decision about TFMR past 24 weeks i don't think it is ridiculous.
I do not believe that a woman who wants or needs an abortion past 24 weeks takes the decision lightly.
It is not an easy thing to do in fact its awful.
I wouldn't wish it on anybody so no i don't think it is ridiculous.

There are posters here suggesting that current portrayals of DS are ‘too positive’ and that the difficult realities of life with DS are glossed over. If that was true I don’t think 90% of these pregnancies would end in termination.

Maybe women do their own research and 90% go on to terminate anyway? There is no ‘right’ percentage. What figure would it be before you deem their choices to be appropriately informed? 50%? Less than that?

The 90% thing is a red herring in this argument designed to make it look like women are being scaremongered into almost inevitably terminating. There’s nothing to say that 90% of women didn’t make a considered decision, just because it’s higher than you would like it to be.

@Spink

Arguably, in the interests of equality (which is what I’ve perhaps naively understood this campaign is about) late term abortion should not be limited to babies with physical or cognitive disabilities, but be a choice for all women. As so many pp have said, the number of women ending their pregnancies at that late stage are tiny, and the decisions to do so are individual and undoubtedly horribly difficult.

I’m a little shocked to read so many comments reflecting devaluing and dismissive views about DS. Yes, women should absolutely be able to choose whether they have a baby with Downs, but in the same way they should be able to choose whether they go ahead with any pregnancy.

Yes, DS can bring with it numerous physical health problems. Yes, a (relatively small) proportion of ppl with DS have profound learning disabilities which mean they are dependent on carers. And mostly, the extent of these difficulties is not predictable during the pregnancy. It is a frightening thing, having a DS diagnosis, knowing your child will likely have a harder life than if she or he did not have that extra chromosome. And that your life will be harder too. But it’s not a given. And that child may be fulfilled, and lived, and loving. Life is an unknown. Having children is an unknown, whether they have DS or not.

There are posters here suggesting that current portrayals of DS are ‘too positive’ and that the difficult realities of life with DS are glossed over. If that was true I don’t think 90% of these pregnancies would end in termination.

It's not a 'relatively small' number. Only 19% of people with DS have an IQ of over 50. About the same number have an IQ of under 20.

Most people with DS are severely intellectually impacted. Most have co-morbid conditions - 50% have congenital heart defects. Poor hearing, sight problems, thyroid issues, Leukaemia and immune system issues are an issue for most. 30- 50% will develop dementia by their 40s.

DS is a serious life limiting condition where there are a few outliers who lead relatively happy healthy lives. The vast majority do not.

@Aberteifi

UsedUpUsername As someone who has had to make the decision about TFMR past 24 weeks i don't think it is ridiculous. I do not believe that a woman who wants or needs an abortion past 24 weeks takes the decision lightly. It is not an easy thing to do in fact its awful. I wouldn't wish it on anybody so no i don't think it is ridiculous.

You basically said that anyone who thinks there should be some sort of limits on abortion isn’t pro-choice.

I’m for the current law. Does that make me anti-choice in your eyes?

Heartofglass let's level up then. No limits on abortion. It will change nothing. The number of late terminations will not suddenly balloon - because women can be trusted with these decisions. Let's just do it. Are you up for it?

But that isn't what Heidi and her team want. They are hardcore Christians, supported by the powerful and well-funded US anti-abortion lobby. They want to erode abortion rights bit by bit. That is why I want her to lose, and lose and lose again every time she goes to court. Abortion saves women's lives.

What this woman is forgetting is that, had this bill gone through, it would have taken away the woman’s right to choose. Until the baby is born, the woman’s rights trumps the unborn baby every time.

Another consideration about bringing a possibly profoundly disabled child into the world is the impact on the family. Children in the family often end up sidelined by their parents, acting as young carers and/or end up more or less coerced into taking over the care of a sibling over whom they had absolutely no control.

Not DS but friends of ours had a profoundly disabled child. Pre pregnancy and pre-birth they were as solid a couple as I've ever known. Within a year he was having an affair because his - had to give up working outside the home - wife, had zero time for anything but caring for their child. She became ill herself due to not taking care of her own health well enough, and her husband simply checked out of everything, got his girlfriend pregnant and fucked off. Now it's not always as crass as that but the number of women who end up caring for a disabled child alone is quite high.

Frankly? If late abortion would save a lot of heartache and suffering of children already born, I'd still not oppose it.

@YouTubeAddict

What this woman is forgetting is that, had this bill gone through, it would have taken away the woman’s right to choose. Until the baby is born, the woman’s rights trumps the unborn baby every time.

She's not forgetting that. She, and more importantly the people supporting her, know exactly what they are doing. This is their intent.

the number of women who end up caring for a disabled child alone is quite high.

Even if the dads don’t bugger off like the one in your story (who sounds a total bastard), I’ve always believed there’s a level of stress and worry that only mothers take on (unless the dad is a lone parent). I’m not saying dads love their kids less, but they just assume they’ll go back to work and if there are any caring needs, the mum will step in. They’re always just a little bit more removed from the situation. I note there are few SEN advocate dads on social media, it’s overwhelmingly mums.

Removing women's right to choose is central. The woman interviewed on WH today with spina bifida wants the government to stop plugging folic acid. Because she thinks it demonises SB when actually it's not the most important thing about her.

She glossed over the fact that most people with SB have severe incontinence issues, hydrocephalus, and other neurological co-morbidities. As well as lower limb paralysis.

I totally understand that people who are living their best life with perinatal disabilities hate the idea that women may terminate if they know their baby has that condition. But it's not their job to police other women's families

I’m probably going to regret wading into this but

Firstly, those who’ve shared stories of TFMR, I’m sorry for your loss and thank you for sharing.

I’m pro choice and think the court made the right decision.

I also have a child with DS. A lot of the information being shared on this thread about DS is wildly out of date and incorrect. I know a lot of families with children with DS. The idea that the norm is non verbal, aggressive, doubly incontinent… is simply untrue. There are elements of parenting a child with additional needs that are challenging, but also a lot that is hugely rewarding. Understanding and education of people with DS has come on hugely and more and more people of Heidi’s generation and younger are achieving things that would have been unthinkable a generation or two ago. A lot of research has been done on the “Down syndrome advantage” - it’s generally considered to be one of the easier disabilities to parent. The vast majority of families with a member with DS are proud of them and think they are a positive influence (again this is research based not anecdotal)

It is STILL a woman’s legitimate choice whether to carry any pregnancy to term. But please let’s not perpetuate out of date stereotypes of DS to reinforce that - abortion on demand should be acceptable without generalising or exaggerating the challenges faced by a minority group.

@Mjfdrjjbf - I have been using this paper which was published in 2006 as my source: library.down-syndrome.org/en-us/research-practice/11/1/mental-health-behaviour-intellectual-abilities-people-down-syndrome

Are you suggesting it's incorrect? Is there more recent research to suggest that the issues they describe are diminishing?

There were a few posters early in this thread who took umbrage at the idea that HC was being manipulated by her backers and supporters and suggested that in fact she knew and understood what she was saying (or should that be parroting?)

She was interviewed on the radio this morning and when asked what her next steps would be she said she’d keep fighting, going to other courts and might even take it to Donald Trump.

Yep. I’ve just scanned that paper and it and particularly it’s secondary sources are pretty dated. Doing bedtime but will be back with a few more up to date references (possibly not tonight as I’m tired and want to have a glass of wine and read, but I will!)

I have a friend who had an alarming symptom (not DS related) picked up at her anomaly scan at 21 weeks. The tests they needed to run as a result took more than 4 weeks. As it happened the tests were clear and there was nothing wrong. But it’s beyond me why anyone would want to force a woman in such a terrible position into a race against time as well.