Today's ruling re Down's Syndrome

[Shirazboobaloo]

Sorry to hijack AIBU for this but can someone explain this ruling to me please?

What I can't understand (from press reports) is how this has "come to this".

Who is Heidi Crowther and who are those supporting her?

I am genuinely confused but don't know where to ask

I’d have more respect for these campaigns if they showed the full spectrum of people with DS. They don’t though. They find someone with minimal issues who is palatable for the media.
All it does it shows me they know there are people out there who aren’t living ‘full lives’ and may live in constant pain or misery. They just brush them under the carpet.
They want to save their energy trying to increase support for people with severe disabilities.

You think taking away the choice of a woman who has just been told her baby has a life limiting condition is the right way to go.
How can someone be pro choice say yes i have had an abortion but because your pregnancy is past 24 weeks you should lose that choice.
I am very happy with the law as it stands.

Sorry if this has been already linked.

First story is lady in US who had her 20 week scan at 21 weeks (Dr away). Abnormalities seen and referred to a specialist. Diagnosis trisomy 13/ incompatible with life. She’s already over her state 22 week limit. Finds a state with 24 week limit and drives through night/begs them to stay open at weekend. She’s assessed there as just over 24 weeks. Then needs to borrow $15,000 cash and fly to only clinic in country that will assist her post 24 weeks.

Second lady had further testing to make informed choice which then took her over her states 24 week limit.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/jezebel.com/the-desperate-trail-to-safe-haven-abortions-in-colorado-1840157545/amp

Women making tfmr decisions are facing the most horrendous time of their life. Adding to the pressure on them my imposing a 24 week cut off is not compassionate. It’s a tiny amount of cases in this post 24 week category.

@Larryyourwaiter

I’d have more respect for these campaigns if they showed the full spectrum of people with DS. They don’t though. They find someone with minimal issues who is palatable for the media. All it does it shows me they know there are people out there who aren’t living ‘full lives’ and may live in constant pain or misery. They just brush them under the carpet. They want to save their energy trying to increase support for people with severe disabilities.

I also have to be very honest and say even the posts from the DS advocate instamums don’t paint a brilliant picture a lot of the time; regular surgeries, health issues and severe communication problems seem to be very much the norm. A lot of posts are about hospital visits, various frustrations with the school and care system, worries about the future. Punctuated by the odd one saying how wonderful everything is, particularly at the moment because of the news.

I remember listening to Maire when she was on Woman’s Hour, saying her son was very healthy. I remember thinking this was slightly misleading as her very gorgeous son has multiple issues, in fact I think he had his most recent surgery only a few weeks ago.

It speaks of a real struggle between the lived reality, and the enormous love they have for their child which means they want a society that makes them feel more accepted/normalised.

It’s very difficult to discuss without making it personal in some way.

A tiny, tiny proportion of terminations take place after 24 weeks.

I imagine (I’m fortunate enough to have experienced it) that on the rare occasions they do take place it is a tragic, heartbreaking decision for the baby’s parents.

I’m not religious, but the expression ‘There but for the grace of God’ springs to mind.

Sorry my post should have said ‘I’m fortunate enough not to have experienced it’

@Aberteifi

You think taking away the choice of a woman who has just been told her baby has a life limiting condition is the right way to go. How can someone be pro choice say yes i have had an abortion but because your pregnancy is past 24 weeks you should lose that choice. I am very happy with the law as it stands.

So actually you are with a lot of other posters then, just they are saying "I am pro-choice but it should only be after 24 weeks in line with the current law"

Past 24 weeks it is already limited in law, so there isn't the same degree of choice that a woman at 23 weeks has.

Read the fucking thread

Actually now ive thought about it an abortion should be available for any woman who wants it at any time.

Also as a mother to a daughter who does not know yet if she is going to be a carrier of the same condition i am a carrier of i would hope that if she unfortunately has to make the awful decision that i have had to make twice that the choice will be there and i will support her 100%

I’m pro choice , and I’ve had an abortion

But morally I’ve never liked this law and I salute this young woman for trying

Even as a younger pregnant women I was shocked that this option was available

So having had the option available to you in your situation and used it (which is absolutely your right) you’d remove it for a woman in a slightly different situation to you?

@Thisisworsethananticpated

I have very strong and personal feelings about this law In that I hate it Always have done

I’m pro choice , and I’ve had an abortion

But morally I’ve never liked this law and I salute this young woman for trying

Even as a younger pregnant women I was shocked that this option was available

Then you have no idea what it is like to be presented with the reality of a TFMR.

And you dare to question the morality of women who have. Shame in you.

*shame ON you.

I think a lot of people are saying that DS can be screened at 12 weeks - but what if you don’t know you’re pregnant until much later? I didn’t find out until much further into my pregnancy.

@Aberteifi

Actually now ive thought about it an abortion should be available for any woman who wants it at any time.

I hope you didn't feel that I was getting at you, apologies if you did, it wasn't my intention. It is such a complex subject, but I also aware that the law at present does pretty much draw a line, which is the "but" in the situation.

@Carboncheque

Read the fucking thread

Aimed at anyone in particular?

Aberteifi
Actually now ive thought about it an abortion should be available for any woman who wants it at any time.

I agree. I used to think abortion was fine up to 24 weeks, and considered myself quite liberal.
Imagine giving birth and the only way a baby could survive was being hooked up to a kidney machine or heart machine to the mother- or the father. Could we force the parents to use their bodies to keep that baby alive? Many parents would choose to do so, but it is a choice- and they have agency over their bodies. So if a born child does not have the right to command the right to use the body of a parent the why an unborn child? Do unborn children deserve more rights than born children?
I agree this is all hypothetical, and completely misogynist. The number of late abortions is miniscule, but hey, lets find that rod.

The reality is that people like Heidi, who are living genuinely independently - are rare and the minority.

At the other end of the spectrum, a significant number of people with DS will need 24/7 care for their entire life, may have multiple co-morbidities etc. You never see these people.

The majority fall somewhere in between that. These are the people you may see working in Sainsbury’s, walking around town, seemingly living independently. What you DON’T see is that they are actually in a supported living situation, perhaps even residential, they have someone managing their finances, supporting them with shopping and attending appointments etc, carers once or twice a day or once or twice a week, or family fulfilling that role. You only see a snapshot of these people, you get to ‘feel good’ when you see them out in the community living their lives. Often the person themselves will feel very indecent, and would tell you they live independently. But they are not living independently in the fullest sense of the word. They have lifelong support needs of one sort or another and those needs have to be met by family or professional care.

The person themselves will feel very INDEPENDENT - not indecent! FFS

I don't understand why people go on about the people who have Down's syndrome that struggle and have health issues/ learning disabilities. Any one of us could become disabled at any time and need 24 hour care with multiple health issues. People are born with learning disabilities/ autism which isn't picked up straight away.

Heidi is looking for equality for people like her, imagine knowing people are happy for someone like you to be murdered in the womb just because of a genetic condition. It should be the same for all babies, either 24 week cut off or any baby can be aborted right up until it's due date. It's eugenics!

I suppose the difference being your parents won’t have spent their entire lives dealing with it/caring for you.

God I cannot imagine that anybody who has to suffer the horrific situation resulting in terminating for medical reasons would ever EVER see it as "murdering their baby in the womb". Holy fuck.

Heart of glass, a few points.

• denying the issues that people with DS and their families face isn’t pointless. Yes there are other disabilities, yes any of us could become disabled but that isn’t the point.

• not one post 24 weeks pregnancy has been aborted due to Down’s syndrome in the last 10 years.

• every family is different. They will make valid decisions based on their own circumstances

• abortion isn’t murder.

• someone like everyone of us is aborted each day. For a multitude of reasons none of which are for us to judge.

The problem with Heidi looking for equality for people like her is that the majority of people switch DS will NOT be ‘like her’.

The harsh reality is that we are crap at providing good care for people with disabilities in this country. You have to fight for it, self fund, give up your career, give up your own dreams and plans for the rest of your own life as you care for your child and then adult child for the rest of your snd their life, with little to know help from anyone else.

It is important that people go into it with their eyes open. If they are prepared for the potential challenges, if they feel emotionally, physically and financially well equipped and able to do it then great.

But they should also be allowed to say you know what, I can’t do that, it’s too much.

I'm not on about the people who have to make the decision, I know that won't be an easy decision to make. My point is that most people would be horrified if a seemingly healthy baby was aborted at 38 weeks, whereas a baby with Down's syndrome is a drain on resources so that's ok then.