I find the men I work with are always supportive

[YawningAngel]

I obviously can't speak for everyone. However, as a woman working in a pretty heavily male environment, my experience has been that since I work hard I'm respected and valued. The only other woman in my team left this week, and all the men are gutted, because she was great. This team was exclusively male before, but once there was a woman about the guys just got ...nicer? The two 'old boys' who would butt heads before just stopped. They get along so much better now. Am I being unreasonable to think that they are behaving better because they want to be chivalrous? And is that even a bad thing? AIBU to think that old fashioned guys are actually more respectful of women than wokebros?

I work in a male dominated environment but you’re wording concerns me, are you in a typically female role Ie secretarial/administrative? Or are you senior or equal to the men?

This is just going to vary massively depending on where you work and who you work with. People in general are all different. I don’t work with any outwardly discriminatory men or women but implicit bias is a big issue.

I think what helps among my older male colleagues is those who have adult daughters. They want their daughters to succeed so are more likely to want me to succeed. Younger men can still have quite a bit of a locker room vibe, and I’ve heard stories about a director or two getting handsy at the Christmas party; I’ve not experienced that because I joined in the pandemic but I remember expressing my bewilderment that people think it’s ok to get really drunk in front of colleagues. That’s something I don’t do, not since being a young student and making a tit of myself in front of some profs. The realisation that I couldn’t take that back was huge.

@JustGiveMeGin

I worked in an office entirely made up of women with children, when I started bleeding heavily whilst pregnant with my second my (female) supervisor insisted I stayed sat at my desk rather than go home and lie down with my feet up as my midwife advised The atmosphere for the 10 years I was there could at best be described as frosty. I then got a job where 85% of the workforce is male. I loved it, if one of my children so much has had a sniffle my (male) supervisor would be packing me off home to look after them! He was just genuinely more family orientated. We then got a female director take over our dept, I lasted 12 months before she made me that miserable I left. So, from my perspective I would pick working with men 100% of the time because I have been lucky to work with the good ones. I haven't been abused, assaulted or put down by them. I was unlucky to work with a small group of nasty women, it is just impossible to generalise as there are good and not so good people in every workplace.

So you’re praising the male environment because when your children were unwell, your male manager packed you off home to look after them - do you not see the irony in that? Did your children’s father get packed of home to look after his sick children by his male manager?

I have found the same (mostly anyway - I’m sure we can all speak of a valueless of times when someone’s been pretty disgusting). Very male dominated and could not have reached my level without the ongoing support and guidance and fight of my male colleagues. I don’t really think about it a lot because it’s natural but I do sometimes stop and think how grateful I am to them all.

@YawningAngel as you left that bombshell and haven’t been back - I’m still wondering what was the point of your AIBU ?
Yes some men you work with are nice and some aren’t. Same with women, end of.

I’m glad you with people you like.
My experience of working with men has been vastly varied over the years, and in every single job I have had to deal with some kind of sexism, and also homophobia, from a man/some men. I have also
Made some of the best male
Friends I have through work. Nothing I have encountered has made me thing that older ‘chivalrous’ men are less sexist, difficult or homophobic - usually the opposite. But I have also encountered mansplaining sexism
From young men too.

Some of the men on my team are extremely chivalrous. Until a woman tries to give them instructions or feedback or doesn’t fit the mold of submissive office help.

@GammyLeg

In my opinion people who talk of “chivalry” don’t mind women as long as they conform to old fashioned expectations of what women should be.

Anyway, There’s no need to be “chivalrous” in a workplace. Just be professional human beings, like you should be with anyone, men and women alike.

This.

I’m also uneasy with the idea that a male environment requires a woman or two to ‘civilise’ it, otherwise the men would all be — what..? Behaving like a cavemen? Permanent stag party? Barely able to conduct their work because of the topless posters covering every surface?

@TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross, keep your knickers on. My husband can and does take time off when needed for the kids. I think you will find if you read my post properly I am saying that some men are good to work with and so are some women. There are good and bad of both. I was happier in the job when I worked with men because I was lucky and they were good people.
Just because I happened to have good experiences doesn't negate anyone having a bad experience hence I pointed out in my post that it was from my perspective.
I don't think we do any favours to women by putting down any good experiences they have with men, after all you wouldn't jump straight in and nit pick at a post from a woman saying she was having a terrible time at work in a male dominated environment or would you?

For the last 12 yrs I have worked with men in the motor trade. It's small place so no one can hide, I have no issues at all, they are all great to work with and chivalry doesn't even come into it at all.
I have encountered sexism at work, by females. Many have come in stating that they are typical women when it comes to cars and dont know what oil etc they need. I direct them to said oil and the first thing they do is go and check with 'the lads' to see if its the right one!!!!
When they return I ask why they did that, some say well if your anything like me....., others realise and apologise, others well its a bloke thing isnt it?
Sadly this has been very common, in comparison males doing this have been a much smaller percentage. I have also have a couple of females working with me during this period and in relation to staffing issues, most have come from them despite males being the majority in the workplace. We are a very tight knit group too so really do look out for each other and back each other up so we all feel put out when things like this happen.

They're people and people all behave differently.I work with three older men who are perfectly mannered and chivalrous but when an opportunity arises they will psychologically beat me into a corner without a seconds thought.
An opportunity arose recently to attend a prestigious and expensive event held over 5 days. They met up, discussed their availability and basically rota'd me out of it completely. It's bred into their DNA in some way to take every networking opportunity they can get.

[quote JustGiveMeGin]@TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross, keep your knickers on. My husband can and does take time off when needed for the kids. I think you will find if you read my post properly I am saying that some men are good to work with and so are some women. There are good and bad of both. I was happier in the job when I worked with men because I was lucky and they were good people.
Just because I happened to have good experiences doesn't negate anyone having a bad experience hence I pointed out in my post that it was from my perspective.
I don't think we do any favours to women by putting down any good experiences they have with men, after all you wouldn't jump straight in and nit pick at a post from a woman saying she was having a terrible time at work in a male dominated environment or would you?[/quote]
As I suspected, you didn’t see the irony. Oh well.

How do you know what they were like before you joined?

@Voice0fReason

My experience is that men of all ages vary enormously. I've met misogynistic men across the ages and also worked with some lovely supportive and respectful men.

As do women, it's human nature,

I suspect women bring different energy to a heavily testosterone environment in your case OP. I'm glad it has worked well for you but that is not the case for many women in male dominated environments.

I find these threads as I said earlier I bit well, odd.

Men and women are people. We are not a different species. Different personalities, skills etc.

Into that mix though that fact that the dynamic between male and female, which is pretty deeply embedded in society, needs to be added in.

Additionally different sectors and jobs and workplaces have different norms and cultures. Hearing other people's experiences is really interesting. But surely it's obvious that no generalisations can be made or conclusions reached based off one person's experiences?

I also don't get the chivalrous thing. I've asked a few times- what does that translate to in an office environment? I mean if OP doesn't enlighten us we don't even know what she means!

@LadyTiredWinterBottom2

I suspect women bring different energy to a heavily testosterone environment in your case OP. I'm glad it has worked well for you but that is not the case for many women in male dominated environments.

IME in male dominated environments. You always get a few women who react/ see the way to integrate and get accepted is to out-dick the men as it were.

IMO they're a nightmare and tend to have little variety in playbook.

Traits are-

• Making lots of crude comments and jokes. Often worse than the blokes would make.
• Indulging in phwoar type behaviour about men in the office.
• Putting male colleagues down to their faces. The ones I suppose the men might see as not real men or something.
• Often loudly talking about how they're not a feminist and they hate the whole thing because women can hold their own. Often totally out of any relevance to anything whatsoever.

That sort of stuff. Over the years I've come to the conclusion that if it's v heavy male, if you can't beat em join em. And don't just join em, behave in a way they equate to bring higher up in the male pecking order.

It's just so dull. And you know what the blokes just laugh at them/ think they go too far etc. And of course don't see them as one of the blokes at all.

With older colleagues I can understand this. Ones who started in the 80s when in our industry you must have been nails to get in, stay in and get on.

So those sorts of women maybe bring a different energy but I'm not sure what. I think from the blokes it's generally confusion and for many of them a large slice of terror !

Sorry didn't mean to pick on your whole post just that bit.

My experience in male dominated environments is that well. They're male dominated! So they feel with men as it were and the arseholes feel more free to be their natural selves....

@TheOnlyLivingBoyInNewCross no I am choosing to ignore you ridiculously nit picking at my post. You have no idea of my circumstances at the time.....for all you know my husband could have been at the other side of the world. As you are determined to make your point I will leave you to it.