I find the men I work with are always supportive

[YawningAngel]

I obviously can't speak for everyone. However, as a woman working in a pretty heavily male environment, my experience has been that since I work hard I'm respected and valued. The only other woman in my team left this week, and all the men are gutted, because she was great. This team was exclusively male before, but once there was a woman about the guys just got ...nicer? The two 'old boys' who would butt heads before just stopped. They get along so much better now. Am I being unreasonable to think that they are behaving better because they want to be chivalrous? And is that even a bad thing? AIBU to think that old fashioned guys are actually more respectful of women than wokebros?

Good for you OP. I’m happy you’re in a good environment.

However if your post is secretly saying “I’ve not been a victim of sexism so it doesn’t exist”, then YABVU.

I really hate how the word 'woke' has been entirely bastardized by those who know exactly what they're doing.

I dont think you can make sweeping generalisations from one team in one company.

I dont know what stage of life you're at but I certainly noticed a lot more sexism 1. As I get older and start to question things more (eg I've only just realised that men dont get told to smile) and 2. As women in the workplace have kids the differences in how they are treated become more apparent both in and out the workplace.

I've been a professional woman in a largely male environment and I agree, I had good support for progressing my career and was generally treated with respect. The only men who didn't tended to be those who were unpleasant to everyone.

However, their attitudes towards more junior women v men were different. It's always a woman who's organising the leaving collections, for example.

Skipping through the religious bits, the code of chivalry seems like a good model:

You only need one rule. Do unto others ....

Or for low energy thinkers:

@Clocktopus

Thou shalt respect all weaknesses, and shalt constitute thyself the defender of them

Bring a woman isn't a weakness.

It definitely isn't a weakness.

I quite like this one and interpreted it as: Speak up for those who can't if you are in a position to do so. Don't stand by and watch others be shat on, do something about it. Help anyone who needs help. Don't look down on others.

I figure if men and women alike did this (see also @DGRossetti "don't be a dick" concise version - excellent btw!) we'd all be better off.

Doesn't have to mean "men protect those weak women" if you bring it up to modern standards and remove the notion that these rules are for men only.

I work in media and the men I have worked with have nearly all been respectful and not at all sexist. Bar one, who was older than everyone else. He was charming but treated men and women differently. At first I found the way he complimented me flattering but then I noticed that he admired me for the wrong reasons. He made out like he thought I was wonderful but then gave more opportunities to my male colleague and took him more seriously. I did not like that at all and eventually pointed it out to HR after trying to tackle it with him to no avail. So no, I don’t agree with your OP based on my experience.

Wait, so the men were nicer when the other woman was around. But not you, as you observed the behaviour change.

Why was this other woman so impactful on these chivalrous colleagues?

In short

Different people have different experiences

Different sectors, different roles, different orgs have different cultures

As with women. Some men are nice some are dicks. Some sectors and companies have cultures that mean dicks feel comfy being dicks, bite their tongues, or somewhere in between

When it comes to men being dicks about women, in society generally it's tolerated up to a point. Banter etc with women's reactions being minimised / ' no sense of humour' etc when women say I don't like that. Society means men and women. Ime it's usually women who do the minimising etc most, while men who are dicks can sit back and cheerfully watch.

Men who don't like it IME, happened loads of times. Will say nothing and approach the woman afterwards to say how terrible it was. When no one else is around obv.

No one workplace can be taken to show that all workplaces are like that.

I mean it's not rocket science is it!

OP hasn't been back I think I recognise the name though.

OP what point were you trying to make? A lot of posters aren't sure.

The men who I work with have been told point blank that if they don't sop their ageism and sexist bullshit then I will sue their arse!

Oh also IME.

The way men talk when there are no women around is pretty much I'd imagine as it's always been.

If you work together for a long time and everyone is used to each other I've found that in the end for most men their real attitudes get revealed at some point. And I'm always disappointed. I am too optimistic I think.

And other times but hidden eg couple of years back team meal out. Me only woman.

The talk was about football, strippers, showing a picture of someone's girlfriend around with no clothes on (not to me!).

I usually say something but I was really hung over and couldn't be bothered. So I sat and enjoyed my food and had more to drink than I intended and let them get on with it.

That's how it often is in my sector. Different in others obv.

I also don't want to be treated with chivalry in the office and I'm not sure what that means. Are we talking holding doors open or what?

More then happy to get offered help with heavy things though I mean obv I'm little. Conversely I am on hand to get hold of computer leads that have vanished down a little gap with my small hands. Fiddly stuff. So you know, that's all fine and normal.

Reading the thread more.

I have spoken up when there has been sexist, racist, homophobic 'banter' over the years.

Does that mean I'm chivalrous

So what do your "old fashioned guys" do for women that so impresses you, OP?

Are they making the effort to find out what the gender pay gap is in your company and to challenge that?

Do they pro-actively support the promotion of women to leadership roles?

Do they challenge misogyny wherever they see it, speak up against sexist language and sexual harassment, listen and take part when you discuss violence against women or the horrific treatment of women and girls in Afghanistan?

Or do they just hold the door open for you and refrain from saying "fuck" when you're there?

Buy your after work drinks whether you are happy with that or not?

@NiceGerbil

Reading the thread more.

I have spoken up when there has been sexist, racist, homophobic 'banter' over the years.

Does that mean I'm chivalrous

If we're taking it back then fuck yeah!

I'm totally with you on the optimism but always end up disappointed score.

It makes me quite sad because I like to think that some men are actually decent human beings who don't do these things. I am yet to meet one who doesn't at some point though

I like men btw before anyone accuses me of being a hater!

I realised I work on the basis that the vast majority of people I meet I assume nice until something happens to show they aren't!

I think many people are less optimisatic!

I think most men are fine. Perfectly nice. Within the context of a sexist society though! And the male pecking order thing. That's why they don't speak up even when they think something is really bad. Not IME about casual racism / homophobia etc either. They don't want to mark themselves out.

Only a few are really antagonistic towards/ really enjoy upsetting women. Only a few deep down really see women as nothing more than sex objects/ cooking cleaning/ this is male space you are here as a favour don't forget your place.

I think the general normalisation in society of sex work is work and empowering/ women do it too etc is causing issues though. And the (old as the hills) idea that women who think otherwise are past it/ prudish/ old fashioned etc.

It was hard enough to know how to react, if at all, to men chatting about strip clubs etc even before this!

@Clocktopus

If men truly wanted to value and respect women then they could step up and speak out about violence against women, gender inequality, and everyday sexism, they could campaign against the gender paygap and maternity discrimination (and other sex based discrimiation), they could challenge sexist behaviour displayed by their peers and call out the men who act inappropriately.

But they don't.

Wonder why...?

Because it's virtue signalling shading into mansplaining or will be seen as such.

Virtue signalling means saying you support something for your own reasons eg to curry favour

But you don't actually do anything at all about it. And often don't even believe it

Is that what you meant to say?

Do you have children? I had the same viewpoint as you, until I had the temerity to have children, and I found the attitude of male colleagues changed.

I think the general normalisation in society of sex work is work and empowering/ women do it too etc is causing issues though. And the (old as the hills) idea that women who think otherwise are past it/ prudish/ old fashioned etc.

This ^ I really, really hate that society is leaning towards calling it "sex work" at all. Totally legitimises it IMO and adds another layer of removal from the fact that these women are being used, taken advantage of and harmed because in reality they have no other options and have been forced into it.

It sounds like a career option, a normalised thing that as you say somehow is supposed to be empowering.

That only really serves the men who use these poor women. That it is now becoming internalised by so many women too is really scary.

@NiceGerbil

Virtue signalling means saying you support something for your own reasons eg to curry favour

But you don't actually do anything at all about it. And often don't even believe it

Is that what you meant to say?

Nope.

I worked in an office entirely made up of women with children, when I started bleeding heavily whilst pregnant with my second my (female) supervisor insisted I stayed sat at my desk rather than go home and lie down with my feet up as my midwife advised The atmosphere for the 10 years I was there could at best be described as frosty.
I then got a job where 85% of the workforce is male. I loved it, if one of my children so much has had a sniffle my (male) supervisor would be packing me off home to look after them! He was just genuinely more family orientated. We then got a female director take over our dept, I lasted 12 months before she made me that miserable I left.
So, from my perspective I would pick working with men 100% of the time because I have been lucky to work with the good ones. I haven't been abused, assaulted or put down by them. I was unlucky to work with a small group of nasty women, it is just impossible to generalise as there are good and not so good people in every workplace.

I'm male and over the years I have found working where there is a mix of male/female better.
The worse experience I ever had was working in a laundry where there majority of the workforce was female.
Constant bitching and arguing I've worked on building sites and the women at the laundry were ruder cruder sexist and more inappropriate then any group of builders I've ever worked with .

@MyPatronusIsACat

I read the OP twice, and still can't fathom what she is trying to say.

Me too 🙈

?

A woman left the team and they're sad cos she was great ... OP is a woman in the team ... It was an all male team then one woman came and they were nicer ... now they're being nice because they're chivalrous and nicer than young guys ...

I'm sorry. They were nicer when a woman joined. Now they're nicer as older. Not sure what the exact question is. Sorry, OP - it's just a bit hard to follow.