How long would you HOPE it would take for 999 ambulance call takers to answer the phone?

[nevereveragainneverever]

For many years I’ve had a recurring nightmare where something bad happens in the dream and I need to call an ambulance - but in my nightmare I get put on hold for ages while waiting for the ambulance service to pick up the phone.

Last night my nightmare came true.

I had to call 999 at 4.30am after getting some stern advice from my designated medical helpline to do so.

The 999 person asks which service I require. “Ambulance”, says I.

She tried to put me through but then said they were very busy ....and I was being placed on hold for the next available operator.

Now here's the thing; if you had a loved one who was seriously ill or injured / having a cardiac arrest / a child who was choking / not breathing etc - how long do you think you would reasonably have to be on hold to get the ambulance service to actually take your call so you could tell them about it?

I honestly thought it would be 20-30 seconds. After all they had no idea what I was calling about and whether someone was in grave danger.

Well….it was SIX AND A HALF MINUTES!!!!! 😩😠😲. On hold!!!! Before they even picked up the phone to ask if the patient was breathing!!

I am still so shocked by this. I’m NOT blaming them - that's not the point of this thread: they’re just so busy, I think understaffed by Covid and other issues and underfunding .

The 999 ambulance call handler took note of my symptoms and said it was a priority case due to chest pain, issues breathing, worrying oxygen sats, other symptoms.. and my underlying serious medical condition (cancer patient on chemotherapy, subsequently admitted to hospital).

The ambulance then took 2.5 hours to arrive!! On a priority call!

Again, I’m NOT blaming them; they had been delayed because they were flagged down in the road when en route to me by desperate parents whose child was sick…and whose own ambulance was delayed. It transpired that the ambulance they should have got had been commandeered by an aggressive, drunk 25 year old man who was demanding a trip to hospital by ambulance for his injured fist - that he got by punching a wall.

You couldn’t make it up! The crew did the right thing in stopping for the child in my view and again I'm not blaming the crew (who were fabulous) and who explained they have only had a total of ten minutes at base - in the last six months! The rest of the time it’s call out after call out - and he said it’s so often time wasters.

I despair. And thought you would like to know. I don't know what the solution is, but wanted to share my experience.

Rant over. Thank you for listening.

Otherwise it's not really fit for purpose it it? I don't know what the solutiin is.

A two tier system. Where a number of ambulances (derived from historic data) are designated as life saving emergencies only. The second tier are non life saving emergencies. If ambulances are really being flagged down and treating people with toothache, there is something wrong with the system.

I think a £40 charge for each GP visit and an £300 charge for each ambulance call-out would sort out a lot of problems.

Yes, it would stop those pesky poor people, who generally have worse health outcomes, from clogging up the health system, leaving it free for the wealthier people to take little Johnny to A&E with a splinter.

I've never had to wait for connection but I waited 3 hours for an ambulance with sil - I understand though, her injury (whacked head very drunk) and as self inflicted! She was fine too, the only and out of consciousness was the booze not the head injury

@ToykotoLosAngeles

When my dd has had seizures she hasn't round from straight away I bundle her in the car and drive - at my old house I was 10 mins from the hospital so 9/10 times I could beat an ambulance (heavy traffic would be the exception) now we are 30 mins so might have to rethink, though she's not had one since puberty fingers crossed

@namechanging202020

It's apparently a 12hour wait for an ambulance for a heart attack just now. I'm actually worried if we do need urgent care we won't get in on time. It's frightening!

You are not unreasonable to be concerned about that at the moment, sadly.

My very unofficial advise would be to find your own transport.

Also in the case of a heart attack it is worth considering that your nearest A&E may not be the best place to go. Find out where your nearest cardiac centre is, where they have 24hour cardiac catherterisation labs, as the problem you may find yourself in is after taking yourself/relative to the nearest A&E you get stuck there with no ambulance availble for onwards transfer to Cath labs which provide the gold standard of treatment for a Myocardial infarction (Heart Attack). In a rural area this can be tricky due to huge distances between hsopitals but in a urban area it can be simply a matter of driving 10 -15 minutes further. It really is a cluster f*ck at the moment!!

One thing as staff which we are pushing for at the moment is more openess and honesty on the phone, ie if there isn't an ambualnce coming and there is unlikely to be one for several hours, I, and many of my colleauges believe that it is the appropriate and moral thing to tell the caller the reality of the situation so they can make their own judgement call.

Also, definetly not offical advice...if they tell you/patient over the phone not to take any tablets, and the patient is fully concious and in pain, give them some bloody paracetmol (as per instructions on the pack)!!!

Other tips for the current situation - find out where your nearest community defibrillator is; Do a first aid course; If you have kids download and print off the NICE paediatric traffic lights and familirise yourself with them then keep it in your first aid kit; work out who your emergency transport will be (talk to your family/neighbours to set up a reciprocal plan); have the money for a taxi set aside ready.

I had to phone an ambulance while in labour a few months ago and we were connected straight away and ambulance was there in minutes. But I'm in Scotland. I couldn't have waited 2hrs for an ambulance etc

Also, definetly not offical advice...if they tell you/patient over the phone not to take any tablets, and the patient is fully concious and in pain, give them some bloody paracetmol (as per instructions on the pack)!!!

Is this for a possible heart attack patient? Why is this? I have never heard this before. Aspirin, yes, but not paracetamol.

@EgonSpengler2020 in terms of honesty we have a fairly recent policy whereby the script for the calltakers changes dependent on how many patients we have waiting, so for example for a cat 3 call they will say we aim to have an ambulance with you within 1 hour / 3 hours / 5 hours / you may receive a call back from a clinician before an ambulance is sent. This has helped as when people hear 5 hours they are generally shocked but can make a better informed decision as to if they can safely make their own way or utilise other pathways.

@dontdoitlikethatdoitlikethis

Also, definetly not offical advice...if they tell you/patient over the phone not to take any tablets, and the patient is fully concious and in pain, give them some bloody paracetmol (as per instructions on the pack)!!!

Is this for a possible heart attack patient? Why is this? I have never heard this before. Aspirin, yes, but not paracetamol.

I think they mean in general So many people will ring with headache/sore ankle/burns/any form of pain and haven't taken any pain relief. If you're ok taking it usually, not allergic and you're in pain then take the pain relief be

Maybe a better system would to have a sort of keypad.

Ie. Press 1 if the patient is NOT breathing. Press 2 if they are.

Then the priority calls get answered first.

*Maybe a better system would to have a sort of keypad.

Ie. Press 1 if the patient is NOT breathing. Press 2 if they are.

Then the priority calls get answered first*

Honestly people will press 1 if they think it will jump the queue.

I’ve seen very pissed off people arriving in a&e by ambulance who are sent to wait in general as they aren’t urgent. They assumed arriving by ambulance would get them seen straight away.

I had to phone an ambulance while in labour a few months ago and we were connected straight away and ambulance was there in minutes. But I'm in Scotland. I couldn't have waited 2hrs for an ambulance etc

I’m in Scotland and waited 3 hours for a patient with a heart related complaint, but not a heart attack. I guess it can vary from any to day, area to area in Scotland too.

@FrankiesKnuckle

Thank you yes, it is that story and thank you for your explaination with it as well.

@RandomLondoner

I barely have 20p to rub together at the end of the month, with my current bills, now I have to factor in the extra NI tax and you want me to fine another few more quid for private insurance to call out an ambulance or go to the doctors?

It would speed up what seems to be the Tory plan of killing off all the poor people quicker

@dontdoitlikethatdoitlikethis

Also, definetly not offical advice...if they tell you/patient over the phone not to take any tablets, and the patient is fully concious and in pain, give them some bloody paracetmol (as per instructions on the pack)!!!

Is this for a possible heart attack patient? Why is this? I have never heard this before. Aspirin, yes, but not paracetamol.

Purely for patient comfort. It is horrible to turn up to a distressed patient who has been in pain on the floor, due to an injury or a medical emergency for many hours who has withheld pain relief due to generic scripted advice.

Aspirin that is given in the context of cardiac chest pain is given for its anti- platelet properties not for pain relief, and on a price per life saved it is one of the most effective drugs in existence!

Paracetamol won't help for cardiac chest pain but is unlikely to cause adverse effects.

[quote Neenaw999]@EgonSpengler2020 in terms of honesty we have a fairly recent policy whereby the script for the calltakers changes dependent on how many patients we have waiting, so for example for a cat 3 call they will say we aim to have an ambulance with you within 1 hour / 3 hours / 5 hours / you may receive a call back from a clinician before an ambulance is sent. This has helped as when people hear 5 hours they are generally shocked but can make a better informed decision as to if they can safely make their own way or utilise other pathways.[/quote]
A step in the right direction.

It is just so frustrating and dangerous when someone is relatively close to a hospital with a moveable patient, particularly a kid, and they are not advised that there either isn't an ambulance on its way yet or that an ambulance is coming from further away than the patient is to the hospital.

@Pushkinia

For those who say “people who can wait two hours don’t need an ambulance” -

I fell downstairs last month and landed badly, fracturing my heel bone, damaging ankle ligaments and also ligaments in left knee. An ambulance was called because I was in excruciating pain, lying half in the bedroom, half in the hallway, unable to move. The front door is at the top of the stairs, I was at the bottom. The ambulance took an hour and 45 minutes to get to me and the staff were wonderful, dealing with pain relief and splinting my ankle, carrying me up the steep stairs to the ambulance and off to hospital.

If I shouldn’t have called an ambulance because I could “wait 2 hours”, how was I supposed to get the help I needed? I was category 3 because I was safe where I was, but there is no way I could have got up the stairs without assistance and pain relief - and I did need hospital care.

You absolutely should have had help. I don't think anyone is saying you shouldn't.

But as you were stable there was no need for a multiple trained ambulance technicians and a fully kitted out ambulance with crash equipment to collect you.

Your main risk was spinal damage, which is very serious and you do need trained people to move you.

I think we need a mobility team with perhaps one fully trained paramedic and then mobility trained assistants, with additional 'transport to hospital' vehicles that do not have the kitchen sink in them. Maybe you could have two stretchers instead of space for one.

I know this sounds flippant but having worked in care you have no idea how often we have the ambulance outside because someone has fallen and we cant pick them up as we will be liable for injuries. On a very bad day we can just have an ambulance there for half the day exclusively for our home.

The paramedics literally walk in, pick them up in the same way we would have picked them up, and then either leave them upright with a few checks over or take them to the hospital for check over to then return them. The ambulance even has to take them back! Most are DNR so dont need a crash kit and the kitchen sink.

They need to rethink the whole thing.

I think we need a mobility team with perhaps one fully trained paramedic and then mobility trained assistants, with additional 'transport to hospital' vehicles that do not have the kitchen sink in them. Maybe you could have two stretchers instead of space for one.

We do, and have had for many years, they are called emergency care assistants (ECA) who work together attending GP urgent admissions, non injury falls and back up paramedics working on rapid response cars (rrv).

Or at least this is what they are supposed to do.

In reality the ECA attend calls way above their training and pay grade putting them in difficult situations and under enormous stress, and the paramedics on RRVs waited hours at scene with no back up available watching patients deteriorate as we run out of treatment options.

@BoredZelda we had to phone about 3.30pm on a Saturday. I think they took about 10 mins from phoning to being in the house. We are just outside of Glasgow and it was the end of a season for a football team who's fans were all gathering in George Square so I'm still surprised it got there so quickly.

That's a shocking wait. I think we were very lucky.

When we phoned nhs24 after my oldest having a febrile convulsion the ambulance was out in minutes again, granted that was 2018.

@EgonSpengler2020

I think we need a mobility team with perhaps one fully trained paramedic and then mobility trained assistants, with additional 'transport to hospital' vehicles that do not have the kitchen sink in them. Maybe you could have two stretchers instead of space for one.

We do, and have had for many years, they are called emergency care assistants (ECA) who work together attending GP urgent admissions, non injury falls and back up paramedics working on rapid response cars (rrv).

Or at least this is what they are supposed to do.

In reality the ECA attend calls way above their training and pay grade putting them in difficult situations and under enormous stress, and the paramedics on RRVs waited hours at scene with no back up available watching patients deteriorate as we run out of treatment options.

Well thats good news you area has that.

In ours I only ever see fully kitted ambulances coming out and 9 times out of 10 essentially running a 5* taxi service.

@MidSummersNightmare

I’ve had to call them a few times pre covid and they’ve always answered instantly and come really quickly.

However I had to call them a couple of months ago and had the same situation as you. The phone kept ringing after I asked for ambulance. My husband was unconscious on the floor after having a diabetic hypo. They asked if I could bring him to a&e myself and when I said no they asked if I could get a family member or friend to bring him. Not sure how we were going to transport a 13 stone unconscious man, I also had 2 small kids in the house.

The other ridiculous thing is that we could have avoided calling an ambulance if the GP would prescribe the injection which stops the hypo but they’ve stopped doing so as too expensive.

This happened to my mother two weeks ago, so scary isn't ithope all is well now

I was in the hospital last night at A&E and my heart sank when I walked past the ambulance bay. 25 ambulances all lined up in their bay with patients in the back and off the road. The hospitals can't cope.

Another person I know was in the ambulance not long ago 5 hours just waiting to be able to get into the hospital.

The government need to pull their fat fingers out their arse and help our struggling NHS and our poor front line workers.

Well thats good news you area has that.

In ours I only ever see fully kitted ambulances coming out and 9 times out of 10 essentially running a 5 taxi service.*

In my area they work on fully equipped ambulances, as the ambulances can be used by any crew, and also so that there is additional kit on the vehicle for RRV paramedics to use that can't be carried in a car. ECAs wear the same green uniform, so you would need to get close enough to read the epaulettes on their shoulders to know what their role is and the role still has different names across different trusts (EMT1 for example).

As for the 9 out of 10 ambulances acting as a 5* taxi. This is not my experience of this summer, it is not a fair reflection of the massive nationwide increase of the highest priority Red calls, and is frankly quite insulting. I have seen so many poorly patients in the last 2 months it is ridiculous, I have been pre-alerting more patients (a sign of a very sick person) than I have not, and one shift recently 75% of my patients went in to resus, and the one that didn't was having a serious paranoid delusional episode.

As a UK national living in Ireland over twenty years. I am in shock and read half this thread. Had to go outside for a while.
Utterly shocking and inexcusable,
Is this in urban or rural areas?
Here if I choose as I did to live up in the Kerry mountain two hours from the nearest hospital of course we know an ambulance will take a long while.
Once they got stuck in mud on the lane and that meant more delay but the paramedics are stars. NAS. National Ambulance Service
Now I live on a small offshore island and when the islands started depopulating severely as no resident drs and in bad weather? Young men dying of eg appendicitis.
But now we have emergency choppers and helipads.
The one occasion I needed emergency help for internal bleeding when I dialled triple nine and gave my address there was instant action and the chopper was landing before the local car got me to the helipad . Life saving service.

Just totally shocked at the situation there. So sorry.

I'm also wondering how on earth the toothache person managed to get in one and the original ambulance switched for the aggressive drunk twat! That should not be the case at all... people really need to stop taking time up when clearly not needed... but it's been happening for years with no solution and it is clearly going to result in even more deaths now especially given the current situation.

I'm so sorry OP for what you went through as that would have been unbelievably scary.

I have the same view as you that it isn't the staff at all but the fact that there has been such a long time of underfunding and it is broken somewhat now.

The other poster being asked if she can take her collapsed husband to hospital herself despite small children and an obvious size difference is shocking.

I can't imagine how much abuse the ambulance staff must be going through now. I've read many threads where numerous posters have stated about the huge queues outside a&e and that is terrifying.

I was able to speak to someone immediately to request ambulance and give details, however, my poor mil (75) lay in the street for 4 hours waiting for it. Broken hip, couldn't be moved. A paramedic came and gave her morphine then we waited another 20 minutes for actual ambulance.