...to ask how we fix the care system?

[TheABC]

The furore over the NI tax rise has obscured the fact that little will change on the ground for anyone giving or receiving care. AFAIK, there are no changes or help for the unpaid family carers and no extra cash, training, or appreciation available for the staff in care homes.

The number of over-80's is forecast to double in the next 10 years (ONS), so the demand for care is only going to rise. AIBU to say we need a National Care Framework, in the same spirit as Scotland's?

||www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/overviewoftheukpopulation/august2019||

I find it terrifying how many people say they would support assisted dying

If it came in, then I think the legal threshold would be high, and lots of safeguards to ensure it's not abused

BUT over time, this would all be watered down in practice and it would happen more and more frequently, and those safeguards would be lost

By way of comparison, if you look at abortion legislation, the legal test for terminating a pregnancy is actually very high, but in practice, it comes down to a woman choosing whether or not to proceed with the pregnancy. I'm not saying it's a decision that's taken lightly, and don't wish to derail the thread, but I do think it's a useful comparison, to see how society's attitude changed over time

When I'm frail and elderly, I don't want to risk being "assisted to die" if I make a few comments about being fed up I can't walk, and everyone rushes to say "oh dear, no quality of life for her, time to let her go"

And the risk of abuse eg a greedy child has their eye on an inheritance and doesn't want care home fees to get in the way....

Honestly, it terrifies me

100% @notanothertakeaway I used to think 'slippery slope' arguments against assisted dying were wrong, but this has really shocked me.

We need to start to genuinely value, and pay for, care.

Those who want care, let them try to access and pay for it. Those of us who don't, enable us to opt out by choosing when we die.

Care should be available to those who want it. Not everyone does, for a variety of reasons.

@gnarlyauldboiler

Those who want care, let them try to access and pay for it. Those of us who don't, enable us to opt out by choosing when we die.

Care should be available to those who want it. Not everyone does, for a variety of reasons.

So if you are 25 have stroke you saying live in poverty for rest of your life because we duct so much from benefits to pay home care you Hardly afford heating or kill yourself it’s your choice.

When I'm frail and elderly, I don't want to risk being "assisted to die" if I make a few comments about being fed up I can't walk, and everyone rushes to say "oh dear, no quality of life for her, time to let her go"

I don't think you've known someone existing with severe dementia - they certainly won't be capable of making a few comments about feeling fed up. They will probably not be able to make any comments at all - just babbling or crying.

My recollection of one of my grandmothers is her crying and shouting “Please God, come and get me” for days and the rest of us being utter wrecks because she was clearly suffering, physically and mentally.

I wish someone could have helped her.

[quote Mercurial123]Swedish care for the elderly looks pretty good.

sweden.se/life/society/elderly-care-in-sweden[/quote]
Sweden has amazing social care generally, but also high taxes to pay for it.

Unfortunately I fear that's the only realistic way to do it You can't have super low taxes and super high state expenditure, the books just don't balance.

And the risk of abuse eg a greedy child has their eye on an inheritance and doesn't want care home fees to get in the way....

Ah, we all see this according to our own moral compass, so talk about yourself…

Fucking hell, I cannot believe how many people are genuinely suggesting assisted dying as the solution to the social care crisis. That's a large part of the problem, right there. Assisted dying should be a completely separate issue.

No, no, no, no. It's not a completely separate issue at all; there are no easy choices and everything is a messy compromise one way or another, just that many people can make decisions without caring about the externalities - the consequences which fall to others. If the supply and demand curves don't reach equilibrium at a price people are willing to pay, you need to alter the shape of the curves if you want a functioning market. You can try tinkering on the supply side, or you could try altering demand.

Assisted dying is a perfectly rational way of reducing demand in the care system, and there are many, many people who would make that choice very rationally if they were only bloody allowed to.

I posted on here a couple of years ago that my stepmother watched her own mother resuscitated during a cardiac arrest at the age of 89 at the plea of one of the grandchildren. She then stroked out. This elderly woman 'recovered' enough to spend ten years in inco pads in a care home not recognising a single member of her family after about the first three days, and burned through nearly a million quid during that time. Those ten years were torturous for everyone apart from the eastern European care workers the family's nine hundred and something thousand pounds provided employment for. None of them ever, ever want to repeat it, even if someone else picked up the bill.

When I'm frail and elderly, I don't want to risk being "assisted to die" if I make a few comments about being fed up I can't walk, and everyone rushes to say "oh dear, no quality of life for her, time to let her go"

You stated that a chosen death is equivalent to abortion in terms of legislation and safeguards, then made this outrageous statement.

Bringing your imagined scenario back to your original comparison of the position on abortion: if a pregnant woman makes a few comments about struggling with the pregnancy, nobody rushes her off for a forced abortion.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

And the risk of abuse eg a greedy child has their eye on an inheritance and doesn't want care home fees to get in the way....

Ah, we all see this according to our own moral compass, so talk about yourself…

I think that comment is unfair. Having a good understanding of human nature and being able to anticipate how any system might be abused is not the same as being willing or keen to undertake that abuse yourself.

Personally, I do have experience of the horror of dementia and I certainly don't think anyone should be forced to live who doesn't want to. However, the ease with which so many here seem to think the solution to a really poor, wasteful, not-at-all designed and inadequately funded system is to reduce demand through assisted dying really does make me reconsider whether the 'slippery slope' objection may have some weight after all.

You might see it that way, I think it’s unfair to assume everyone has ulterior motives.

You say the system is underfunded, abs while that is true, millions are spent on keeping people existing, not even loving, often against their wishes.

Is that fair?

Living not loving, thought I suppose there ain’t much loving there either.

ChardonnaysPetDragon

And the risk of abuse eg a greedy child has their eye on an inheritance and doesn't want care home fees to get in the way....

Well obviously the best plan is to keep the old person in their home and allow them to have an accident/ wander off into the night.

Watch you don't trip on that stair carpet Chardonnay

As a carer, I have started to think about how I would end my own life should I need to. We would not make dogs live the way some old people are existing. 4 visits a day to Chang an inconvenience pad, 5 mins chat if that and then left. But let’s keep them alive. It’s cruel the way the elderly are kept.
I believe there will be more conversations about assisted dying as more people see how those they love are made to carry on with no quality of life.
Modern medicine has made people live far longer than they would have done.

Never mind the carpet, the bloody dogs are always lurking on the stairs.

I don't think suggesting assisted dying is so shocking. I witnessed my mum's decline and her last few months were so, so awful and lacking in any autonomy. I do not want that for myself. It's about my wants.
I've written a living will (different term but can't remember what it is). Downloaded it from Dignity in Dying website and have asked for no treatment e.g. antibiotics, if I'm in a state like dementia. This isn't euthanasia, it's declining life-prolonging treatment.

I also don't see why it isn't 'fair' to have to sell your house to pay for care. It's unfortunate and unlucky, but lots of things are. It's a reflection on our over-inflated house prices that we worry so much about passing on our inheritance to our children. If property was more affordable, it wouldn't be such an enormous deal.

@Stircraazy

When I'm frail and elderly, I don't want to risk being "assisted to die" if I make a few comments about being fed up I can't walk, and everyone rushes to say "oh dear, no quality of life for her, time to let her go"

I don't think you've known someone existing with severe dementia - they certainly won't be capable of making a few comments about feeling fed up. They will probably not be able to make any comments at all - just babbling or crying.

Frail and elderly isn't the same as having dementia

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

And the risk of abuse eg a greedy child has their eye on an inheritance and doesn't want care home fees to get in the way....

Ah, we all see this according to our own moral compass, so talk about yourself…

Nothing to do with my own moral compass, more a sad truth that SOME people will be quicker to say their parent has poor quality of life if there's ££ at stake

@legoriakelne

When I'm frail and elderly, I don't want to risk being "assisted to die" if I make a few comments about being fed up I can't walk, and everyone rushes to say "oh dear, no quality of life for her, time to let her go"

You stated that a chosen death is equivalent to abortion in terms of legislation and safeguards, then made this outrageous statement.

Bringing your imagined scenario back to your original comparison of the position on abortion: if a pregnant woman makes a few comments about struggling with the pregnancy, nobody rushes her off for a forced abortion.

Feeling too young / old to have a child, or knowing that a foetus has certain health conditions would now be considered a valid reason to terminate a pregnancy. This may or may not be a good thing, but illustrates my point that legal safeguards may be weakened over time

Coincidentally, here's a thread giving reasons why people terminated a pregnancy. Some of the reasons do not meet the high tests in abortion legislation, which again illustrates my point that legal safeguards can be watered down over time

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4346471-to-think-no-woman-aborts-a-baby-lightly-is-untrue-and-unhelpful

Having watched a relative spend months (fortunately not years) in a care home with dementia - and having walked round the corridors and seen many of the other patients, that isn't living in any way most/many of us would want to think of it. I suspect most of those dementia patients would have been horrified to look forward and see how they would end up.

Before watching a second person die of/with dementia, I lost the naivety that dementia means that you are in your own world but happy in it - so many of them, when they express any emotion, were angry, upset or sad. It's an appalling disease.

It's also, from my admittedly limited experience, over-medicated. My relative had a fall and ended up in hospital with sepsis about 9 months before she died. Another relative was treated for a minor heart attack and had another 2.5 years of a miserable existence. Should they have been treated? In my opinion, no.

Relatives can often be part of the issue - I was on a FB group for a while and quite a few would understandably say that they weren't ready for their relative to die - but really that relative was most likely more than ready.

Nothing to do with my own moral compass, more a sad truth that SOME people will be quicker to say their parent has poor quality of life if there's ££ at stake

So? Why are you making it about money when people's dignity is destroyed? Why should they be denied an exit on their own term just because there are some chancers out there?

Build in safeguards in the systems, and let people take their own decisions.