...to ask how we fix the care system?

[TheABC]

The furore over the NI tax rise has obscured the fact that little will change on the ground for anyone giving or receiving care. AFAIK, there are no changes or help for the unpaid family carers and no extra cash, training, or appreciation available for the staff in care homes.

The number of over-80's is forecast to double in the next 10 years (ONS), so the demand for care is only going to rise. AIBU to say we need a National Care Framework, in the same spirit as Scotland's?

||www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/overviewoftheukpopulation/august2019||

I'm so shocked so many support assisted dying.
Devastatingly so...
Religious beliefs aside I find it horrifying though I can read some value into the reasons some give here.
God I'm depressed at this.

I think it's all very well quoting systems like Sweden but they only have a population of 12 million and the make up of their population is different too. It's like the comparison of the UK to NZ in pandemic, it's not a good comparision

The OP mentioned Scotland. Sweden has double the population. Sweden has some workable ideas if we had a government that actually cared about its elderly, people living with disabilities etc.

@DoubleShotEspresso

I'm so shocked so many support assisted dying. Devastatingly so... Religious beliefs aside I find it horrifying though I can read some value into the reasons some give here. God I'm depressed at this.

Why? Nobody’s suggesting it should be obligatory. Why shouldn’t someone with capacity choose the time of their death?

Have a look at the profits made by care homes it does not cost what they charge, it is about making money out of people with no other options

How can this be the case?
If there was money to be made the care homes would be competing for clients, building luxury places to attract more clients. They aren't making lots of money, except maybe in the south east where people have more money, remember clients put there by councils pay a low rate subsidised by a wealthier few paying ones. They arent making a lot.
Duncan Bannatyne made his fortune in Care Homes but I think it was when Maggie's Gov first made the Councils pay -anyway for some reason it was lucrative then.

@Mercurial123

I think it's all very well quoting systems like Sweden but they only have a population of 12 million and the make up of their population is different too. It's like the comparison of the UK to NZ in pandemic, it's not a good comparision

The OP mentioned Scotland. Sweden has double the population. Sweden has some workable ideas if we had a government that actually cared about its elderly, people living with disabilities etc.

The problem is not really the government, we get what people vote for, it is the electorate.

The electorate in Sweden are happy with taxes that are considerably higher than in the UK, until the UK electorate we willing to pay more, and to get to Swedish levels it would be a lot more for most, then we will not get anything like Swedish levels of public services.

@CovidCorvid

Do we need a National Care Service rather than for profit, private companies providing it and making money out the system?

I definitely think we do. I work in public sector and It is a fallacy that contracting out is cheaper. You still need commissioning team to manage them. Training still needs to be done to make up for the lack of training. Money goes out of the system instead of staying in the system eg, a great carer may be a great manager so you have upskilled that person and invested in them and then benefit from their skills & experience. Ditch the private companies I say.

@Stircraazy

Have a look at the profits made by care homes it does not cost what they charge, it is about making money out of people with no other options

How can this be the case?
If there was money to be made the care homes would be competing for clients, building luxury places to attract more clients. They aren't making lots of money, except maybe in the south east where people have more money, remember clients put there by councils pay a low rate subsidised by a wealthier few paying ones. They arent making a lot.
Duncan Bannatyne made his fortune in Care Homes but I think it was when Maggie's Gov first made the Councils pay -anyway for some reason it was lucrative then.

amp.ft.com/content/952317a6-36c1-11ea-a6d3-9a26f8c3cba4

I do not have an economics brain at all but I think this sets out some of the issues

@gnarlyauldboiler

I'd rather have an assisted death for myself and leave my assets to my dcs who will need help because they have SN and might not be able to provide for themselves fully. I don't want my house to be sold in order to force me to remain alive in some grotty care home whilst my dcs go without a roof over their heads.

The government can't force people to train as nurses or care assistants, so how are they going to get staff to care for an increasingly elderly population? It's going to bankrupt the country if we end up having to pay carers £25 an hour which lorry drivers can now command due to a chronic shortage.

Very few people want to live out their days sitting in a soggy incontinence pad with the TV blaring out Naked Attraction whilst being looked after by a bored yob who's been forced by the jobcentre to work in a smelly care home.

This exactly we struggled to buy out house to provide for special needs DC as security as they are unlikely to be able to fund their own homes.

If I reach the stage where I need to be in care then I deem that is prioritising quantity of life over quality. I will never want to have my life prolonged for the sake of being alive. Treating every illness, pump ping full of antibiotics and vaccines to prevent flu or pneumonia is not what I want. I hope that if I can’t die of natural causes there will be assisted dying by then.

I never said that carers were yobs. What I said is that people who are forced by the job centres to take on care work might very well be.

We were frequently sent monosyllabic, single braincelled individuals who often didn't last a shift.

I'm sure there are many carers who do a stellar job, but it's becoming a frequently impossible to do job now and people are leaving.

@DoubleShotEspresso

I'm so shocked so many support assisted dying. Devastatingly so... Religious beliefs aside I find it horrifying though I can read some value into the reasons some give here. God I'm depressed at this.

You dont think someone of sound mind should be allowed to, in a dignified manner, choose to stop living - knowing that they dont want to face what is to come?

@Akire

In Scotland we have the SSSC- Scottish social services council.

All carers have to register & pay an annual feel depending on your role. In order to maintain our registration we have continual training. The majority of training is provided/paid by the employer and they too have their own courses you must do. Also all staff must have or have started their SVQ. There are several levels depending on how high you wish to go. Again the employer pays for this. All the above is expected to already have gained or in the process of within 6months of starting that role.
More often than not training is scheduled on your day off & I know many company's that won't pay for your time to attend if it's your day off.
The job also now is about 30% paper work. As we can be held accountable for people's lives all interactions with service uses have to be recorded with i doted & t's crossed. One course I have done was called "if it ain't written down, it didn't happen". No disrespect but the average shelf stacker gets paid more than the average carer.
Most people have no clue about what's entailed working in the care sector. Iv been a carer for over 22 years. Things have changed dramatically, some good and some bad. But things need to change again to support the population that need support.

Yes paperwork or “app work” as it now
Is eats up good part of visit. Have log in have some PPE have take coat off. Then do notes tick pages sign out. Go loo get PPE off coat on. Talking 10min from 30min visit.

We have NVQ but again work in own time
Then 50p more an hour

@PinkiOcelot My mum spent time in a home with both state and self-funding residents: she paid over £1000/week, the local council was paying under £700 week. Everyone got the same care - which meant Mum was subsidising the council residents.

She moved to a private-only home at exactly the same price, but where everyone was paying the full rate. In every way it was much better for the same money - more staff, more activities, better food.

So while you are right if it's a mixed home, my advice to any self-funder would be to choose a home that is self-funding only (unless you think you're going to run out of money before you die).

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow, that would be my aunt, currently caring for my grandparents.

I have also watched my grandfather deteriorate in a care home after a stroke left him immobile - the care was fantastic, but he was basically imprisoned in his own body. Every single pleasure he had in life was taken away from him - seeing family and friends (thanks to Covid), food (could not swallow) and reading as he could not lift a book or tablet. By the end, he refused liquids and said he had enough. If I were in that position, I would want the option to go out on my own terms.

However...that does not mean it's right for everyone or there should be an automatic presumption of death.

Carers need professional recognition, in the same way nurses have their training and pay bands. Unpaid (family) carers are treated appallingly. They get a mere £67 a week and respite is a joke.

It needs significantly more money. And remove the private sector tbh. I don’t like the idea of profiteering from care and it created awful business models.

wtaf? how to fix care and all the first answers are saying assisted dying? that is not the answer to the care problem

the whole system is just mish mash, it needs a complete overhaul..mps should get together Cross party and sort it out

There is a huge amount of misconceptions about care on here. People saying state care is worse than privately funded care etc.
I work in palliative care and the homes I send patients to take both private and funded patients - the CCG just pay a lot less. Yes there are state homes also. Care provided in people's homes is also provided by private care agencies who provide care to private and funded patients, same carers and same level of care!
The issue is that there simply isn't enough of them. More and more frequently I have patients dying at home and there are no carers available to go in and provide hands on physical care. The result is I see more and more patients who are simply relying on what ever we can provide or families having to do the best they can. It's soul destroying at times.

Assisted dying could very well lead down the sticky road of eugenics and getting rid of people whose care is expensive and who do not 'contribute' to the state. It is a nice idea that we can choose where, how and when we die, but even on this thread it is associated with economic prudence and that is worrying.

There are some interesting ideas on the thread, about a national care service, different strands of taxation and a true recognition of caring as a profession, but killing ourselves off to save the state money or to not be a burden to our families is not a good idea.

@DoubleShotEspresso my friend’s dad lived in Canada, I believe he was one of the first to take advantage of their change in the law.

He assembled his family from all around the globe - as he had time to plan that.

He saw them when he was well enough to enjoy them (cancer, very poor prognosis and rapid decline expected).

He was diabetic and enjoyed a final meal with them all, eating WHATEVER the fuck he liked.

They went back to their hotels, and he and his wife had some private time.

Then he chose to die.

When my friend told me about, I could only think - we should all die so well.

We need to stop keeping people alive and let people die earlier. 70s and 80s are not young ages to die. Our way of viewing of death is totally screwed. And yes bring in assisted dying. Let people pop off when they're ready in a dignified way.

Is anyone else shocked about the number of people saying assisted dying?

@GingerAndTheBiscuits

It bears mentioning there is no “deprivation of assets timescale”. Councils can look back as far as they want when deciding if there has been intentional deprivation of assets. It’s a common myth with comes up here a lot.

So if someone sells their house, buys a smaller one and gives the difference to their children, can the council chase the children to give the money they’ve inherited to pay for their parent’s care home fees?

@IceLace100

Is anyone else shocked about the number of people saying assisted dying?

Yup everyone assumes they want die as soon as need any sort care.

@Andante57 if the Council has grounds to believe it was done with the intention of depriving themselves of assets so they wouldn’t have to pay for their care, then the money needed for care could be recouped from the children as the beneficiaries of the asset.

See my reply at 16.43 for the things the council has to consider