To think this isn’t ok? 7-year-old said “I’m a really good follower.”

[Glassy5]

My DS was talking about a club that his friend invented. Ds’ sibling wanted to join the club, DS said it’s up to his friend because his friend cancels or creates new clubs whenever he wants to. DS said, “That’s his choice. He makes the rules and I just follow them. I think I’m a really good follower actually.” He said the last part proudly.

Ds is really small, quiet and shy and is definitely easily led. He also (by choice) doesn’t have many friends and only really one proper friend at school.

I also often overhear his older cousin tell him to do stuff they shouldn’t sometimes, and DS will do the thing.

My DF was there when it happened once and I said I was worried about that trait of DS’. (In this instance, DS’s cousin told DS to hit his other cousin because he wouldn’t play the game. DS did it.)

DF said that DS wants to do the not-nice thing, he’s only following because it gives him permission to do the thing he wants to do anyway.

But I’m not so sure!

And I don’t know if being a follower is a good thing. I try to raise DS’s self esteem… but I can suddenly see him getting into trouble when he’s older because he’s doing what his friends say, etc.

This all started when he started school, which he hated at first. He wasn’t like this before. But then, he’s been there for 3 years now, so it’s hard to tell anymore.

I think that your Dad is right.

It's OK being a follower-depending on who you yre following!

Just doing as someone else told you isn't a get out for doing something wrong!

Aw bless you.

He is only seven. I imagine even the greatest leaders have been followers at some stages in life. That does't mean he will blindly follow someone into something bad or do whatever anyone tells his regardless.

He'll be fine. They all go through phases.

That’s his choice. He makes the rules and I just follow them. I think I’m a really good follower actually.” He said the last part proudly

He's in school. School is a system of rules. Children and rewarded for following rules and punished or scolded for not following rules.
It is hardly surprising that he has picked up the idea that following rules is something to be proud of: its exactly what school has taught him. It is likely this is what he is reflecting in this sentence.

He is only 7. If he is small, quiet and shy he is probably very aware that he could easily become the victim of a bully and is keen to avoid this and this may affect his behaviour too.

I think I’m a really good follower actually.” He said the last part proudly

I would also say that if he is good at following the rules that means he is good at playing the game, so that is something to be proud of. The same as following the rules of a team sport are important for you to be 'good' at that sport. Part of the point of play is for children to learn how to co-operate along a set of rules, that is why children so often have rules to follow in their games. Its how they learn to be part of a do-operative group, which is very important for members of a social species to learn.

@MrsPelligrinoPetrichor

Not everyone is a leader, it's not a negative thing and ds sounds perfectly happy.

I think the issue is though that the OP is worried the her son won't have a mind of his own and will be easily led and manipulated into doing things that aren't right. It isn't about being a leader it's wanting your child to think for themselves and make their own choices

It can be both positive and negative. I'd explain to him that he needs to use his own judgement, think through the consequences and not just do what people tell him to- always a tricky one to grasp as he also needs to do as he is told quite often!

Being a good follower could also mean you are a loyal friend, so there are some positive aspects.

OP your son sounds exactly the same as my little brother was at school! Don’t think my brother ever described himself as a follower but his way of getting through school/life was to find the “ringleader” in any given group, assume the role of their “deputy” and do literally whatever they told him to do. I was quite a bit older than him and have always been quite headstrong and known my own mind so I watched this play out with complete astonishment . My parents didn’t seem to think it was an issue as he was “popular” - yes, popular with other kids in that they knew they couldn’t touch him as his best friend was the class bully, and popular with the bully as they could control him!

It wasn’t too bad in primary school as the kids didn’t get up to anything too naughty. But in secondary it was a whole other ball game and he’d do things like sneak in alcohol for the group if the leader told him too, and then hide the bottles in his locker to take the fall for everyone. He actually got suspended over that incident but didn’t get at all mad at his friend - seemed pleased that the leader said to him “thanks mate, we owe you one” ! needless to say, nobody else ever took the fall for my brother!

Thankfully at uni he just happened to fall in with a really nice crowd where there wasn’t really a ringleader. He’s still very happy to be the butt of other people’s jokes as a way to be “liked” but at least nobody was asking him to do dodgy stuff for them anymore. He’s now also married to a lovely, quiet woman who wouldn’t ask him to do anything awful either. Don’t know if this is because he grew up or because of luck!

Anyway, in your shoes I would be driving home the lesson to your son that it’s not good to follow orders blindly and that there are some people you always need to obey (the police) and others you don’t (friends). Also make it clear that he’s always responsible for his own actions, so if he hits or steals or says something horrible because someone else told him to, he will be the one to get in trouble. The leader knows this, so that means they are not a good friend and he should not be doing what they say.

@Glassy5

It’s not that I want him to be a leader - he wouldn’t suit that and that’s not what he wants. He doesn’t like being the centre of attention, he likes playing on his own, etc.

But I wonder if being a follower isn’t great? You’re not using your own judgement, just trusting other people’s?

I'm of the belief that being follower skills can be really valuable (if we all learnt them, we'd learn to spot bad political leaders and weird social movements earlier, not let pride get in the way of actually listening, maybe make better voting choices, collaborate better, etc). It really grinds my gears that people are told to only want to be a leader (there are so many bad ones and it's usually an ego driven goal anyway).

I think though your well founded worries are on whether this cousin is not a good influence, though - I wouldn't worry about the follower comment as your DS is only little, still, and developing his personality. He could well be way more assertive as he gets older. But the cousins might be exploiting this part of him at the moment
That's what I'd focus on tackling.

I was concerned about DS1 when he was little, because although he'd never start trouble, he'd often be the next one to copy.

I had several chats with him about following blindly, because, like you, I was concerned this would cause him problems later in life.

He's 13 now and the chats seem to have worked so far, because he doesn't follow anyone, he does his own thing and wouldn't do anything stupid or bad now just because his mates would. In fact, he mostly wouldn't be friends with the kids who do the wrong things.

The kids he's currently friends with are all lovely and don't cause me any qualms - so far we're winning on this.

But those early chats, I feel were necessary - to explain to him that often it won't be the leader who gets into the most trouble, but the next person - teachers etc. might miss the first bit of bad behaviour but be alerted to something happening, and then they'll catch the next person, which would be DS1. We also had the discussion about lemmings...

Explain the difference to him between being a follower and a sheep. As a natural follower, he can be happy for others to take the lead, but he should always think for himself: would I do this anyway? Are there reasons I shouldn't do this? Am I being told to do something the leader won't do because they might get into trouble?

And be very clear that any 'friend' who will only let you play if you do as you are told is no friend at all.

I think it's important for your son to understand that it doesn't matter if someone else told him to do something. He is still responsible for his own actions and whatever consequences may follow.

My parents used to say to me: "If so and so decided to jump off a cliff, would you do that too?"
I think the same would apply to being told to do something dangerous or immoral.

Part of being a good follower is having the discernment to know who to follow.

Your DS isn't really old enough to have that and just thinks being a good follower is listening to everyone else - as is developmentally appropriate at that age. Your father could be right that he wants to do those things, but I'd think it's more that if he views himself that way that he needs guidance on following.

At 7, it's mainly talking through how to determine who to listen to and talking things out, correcting when he gets that wrong as pp said. As he gets older, there are things like Calling Bullshit for learning about and discussing how information is used and how to discern who to listen to and how well that could work well for a young adult.

Only leaders or followers?

What about the independent thinkers?

Plenty of us are very independent minded and simply not interested in getting involved in group politics, although will step up and lead, if necessary, but I’m equally happy to be a worker bee or preferably, do my own thing.

My son is happy pottering around and playing by himself. He’ll join in playground games if he wants to but he knows his own mind and doesn’t feel he has to be part of the group and will potter about in his own world perfectly happily.

I think being a people pleaser is not a good trait because you’re always looking for approval from others and sometimes do things you’d rather not do for fear of being ostracised.

You need to encourage your son to develop some independence away from the playground bullies and become more confident in doing his own thing. Encourage him to try various clubs and activities to find something he really enjoys doing.

If you can get hold of a copy of "Please Mrs Butler", it contains gently humorous poems about school life, which your son could enjoy.
Without labouring the point, you could chance on the poem, "Blame".
The teacher is chiding "Graham" for various misdemeanours, always getting the response at the end of each verse, "Jonathan told me to do it!"
In the last verse, she tackles him directly;
"Jonathan, what's all this I hear
About you and Graham Prewitt?
Well Miss, it's really more his fault -
He tells me to tell him to do it!"
It usually drew knowing smiles from my class.......

@Ozanj
WTAF ?
I sincerely hope that your post was not meant seriously.
Jesus H Christ. He is a small and usually quiet kid. He will learn by being spoken to, having things explained to him and having a decent role model. Not by being "punished" .
If you have children I feel sorry for them.

This is my 6 year old son to a T, but he has some possible special needs. He does whatever his friend does, and struggles to interact with his peers normally. I feel sad sometimes but I hope that he will learn to deal with it as time goes on and with our support.

Hes a team player. Hes good at working out whats needed of him and listens well and gets involved. Maybe he would be good in the army or something with clear direction

I can see your worry about what the future holds if this type of behaviour continues
Would he take drugs, rob a bank, torture someone because someone else said to do it. (He has already started hitting because another child told him to)
I think your father is right up to a point in the fact he wants to do things but then also wants to pass the blame onto someone else.

I would do as another poster says and punish him more harshly when he does something unkind because another person has told him to.
I would emphasise that whilst the other person might have told him to hit another child it was him doing the hitting and that is why he is being punished.
I would stress that you are not interested in his excuses about someone telling him to do something. It was his choice to do it.

I think you need to start giving him choices Even little things eg whether he wants peas or carrots or both for dinner and build up his confidence around choosing just little things and build it up to choices having consequences. I.e. if he chooses to go to the cinema he doesn’t get to go somewhere else
Or because he made a choice to be unkind because someone else told him to then there are consequences.
Or if he refuses to do something unkind and nasty because someone asked him to he gets a reward for making his own choices

Yes there are followers and leaders. We see it in people who strap suicide vests to their body because someone has told them to do it.
For most people though they are leaders in their own life and following their own path and making their own choices.

I would question about why he has made the choice of having only one friend. Was it his choice or someone else’s
The wording he uses I think needs to be delved deeper into. Where did he get the phrases from.

I would also point out to him that the word follower doesn’t mean he is a friend. A follower is someone who just does as they are told no matter what
Eventually the leaders do tire of the followers and he stands a good chance of being disguarded and he will be on his own with no one to play with as he has been nasty to the rest of his class on the say so as someone else

Most children are quite compliant socially. The school system itself rewards and encourages followers from year 1 to 11. In reception theyre trained in it.
This is especially obvious at secondary.

Generalising he'll do better academically. Children who are 'leaders' tend towards disruption.
Read some educational theory?

Well if his mates 'like' him because he does what they tell him then he will want to be a follower.
I don't think it's too big a problem - if he wanted to be the leader it would just result in arguments probably.
But can he be the leader at home sometimes - decide on what meals to have some days/ organise the snacks for a day out whatever.
Is he athletic - being fit and therefore good at sport especially football will win him brownie points with his mates. I would encourage and help with that.

@CovidIsADick

People are either followers or leaders. Both have positives and negatives. Followers are often very empathetic, they are aware of others needs and tend to be able to read people well. One great thing about being a follower is that they have the potential to become a leader and they tend to make better leaders because of their people skills. It’s not nearly as easy for a leader to become a follower. My DH spent his whole life being a follower but was recently put in a position where he had to step up and take charge. He is incredible! All the experience he has from being a follower all his life has made him an amazing leader. He possesses traits that aren’t always seen in leaders. He is humble, level headed, kind, thoughtful, considerate and fair. HTH!

Surely you can be a bit of both. Unless you are the ultimate leader/ King of the Universe you will probably find yourself in a position of having to both follow those above and lead those you manage

OP I would build his confidence in things he is good at and get him to appreciate his own identity and values. I'm sure he will soon get tired of following this other boy and want to branch out on his own.

I don't think it's too big a problem - if he wanted to be the leader it would just result in arguments probably.

No-one's saying he has to be a leader. But he does have to think for himself and not do something just because someone else tells him to.

'If X told you to put your head in the fire, would you do it?' was my mother's response to 'X wanted me to.'

There are times when he needs to do as he's told, but he's old enough to know the difference between a teacher telling him to stop talking, or line up at the door, and a 'friend' telling him to hit another child, or throw stones at the cat, or whatever.

And it's important that he learns this before secondary school, when being a follower and not thinking for himself could get him into serious trouble.

The cousin is older. Many kids would struggle going against an older child - it takes a lot of confidence not to care what an older child thinks of you and 7 year olds are often keen not to appear babyish.

I would be worried about the follower thing. It's not a true friendship if you're constantly bossed around and forced to do stuff for them. Does he know that you can be a good friend and say no? That saying no isn't unkind ? That if someone doesn't like you because you won't do as they say then that's not being a good friend either ?

Just think about this...

Is it possible that an adult at school has complimented him on being good at following the class rules and he's assumed that good boys are good followers ?