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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to ask how much support Pro-Life believers provide for actual children in need? Texas just banned abortion in the US.

407 replies

thecranberries · 02/09/2021 12:44

AIBU to ask what Pro Life 'supporters' do to actually help living children in need? Sparked by Rachel Maddow Show Podcast on MSNBC - which gives a brilliant coverage on what's going on.

PL seems to want to stop a woman's right to choose, even in instances of rape or incest. That's in Texas, US, but as we know, many of the 'trends' that start in the US migrate over here. And as we know, there are lots of Pro-Life (read anti abortion, anti women) believers over here.

So, my AIBU is to ask - what do these PL do to actually support actual living children in need in this country or the world? How much do they give to UNICEF/Save the Children etc charities? How much do they donate time, money and resources to actual children living in poverty, bad housing, experiencing harm or bad schooling to ensure that these actual living children get the best life possible?

Do these PL, who cite religious grounds, actually enable women to obtain proper contraception when they need it? And speaking about religion, how many religious PL turn a blind eye to religious organisations history of child abuse?

I don't understand anyone, especially men, who does not accept a woman's right to chose what happens to her own body.

So, AIBU to ask Pro Life supporters to tell me in detail what they do - as actively as supporting their 'cause' - when it comes to helping living children in need?

OP posts:
goinggently · 02/09/2021 15:16

I am so sick of this shit.

If you don't believe in abortion, don't get a fucking abortion. Now fuck off.

End of.

Eskarina1 · 02/09/2021 15:16

It infuriates me that pro life protesters in the UK focus on intimidating a woman into not having an abortion and spend significant funds on supporting themselves doing so but ignore the reasons women seek abortion.

There are many women who go through an abortion who would welcome someone offering them an alternative. It's not pro women the say "because some women regret abortions all women should be forced to continue with a pregnancy whether they want it or not". Pro women is providing women with the support and resources to make the right choice for them.

It's not about preventing children being born into poverty, it's that (as MSI state) every child should be a wanted child.

You can't prevent abortion, only legal abortion.

TiredButDancing · 02/09/2021 15:17

@Petardos

The theory that it replaces birth control (because feckless, lazy women can't be bothered with birth control) is one of the many ridiculous fallacies anti-abortion people like to trot out.

I am not anti abortion but I can see there is not room for discussion here. However, Yes, there are women that do not use contraception and get pregnant and then want an abortion and pay by the taxpayer. You can’t proof there are none. However, whatever fits with your agenda.

Of course there are women who don't bother with birth control. But regular repeat abortions is NOT the standard.

Also, as others have pointed out, if it's a cost issue, then sure, we might agree that using contraception is cheaper than abortion, but a) abortion is still cheaper than the state raising an unwanted (or even wanted) child and b) that argument needs to carry on so that lung cancer sufferers can only be treated if they've never smoked, car accident victims can only be treated if they did not cause the accident etc.

SmokeyDevil · 02/09/2021 15:22

@Petardos

The theory that it replaces birth control (because feckless, lazy women can't be bothered with birth control) is one of the many ridiculous fallacies anti-abortion people like to trot out.

I am not anti abortion but I can see there is not room for discussion here. However, Yes, there are women that do not use contraception and get pregnant and then want an abortion and pay by the taxpayer. You can’t proof there are none. However, whatever fits with your agenda.

I love that you call me judgemental or rude, and come out with tripe like this. Please educate yourself before judging me. I'd rather be rude than stupid. Grin
CatJumperTwat · 02/09/2021 15:22

@Petardos

The theory that it replaces birth control (because feckless, lazy women can't be bothered with birth control) is one of the many ridiculous fallacies anti-abortion people like to trot out.

I am not anti abortion but I can see there is not room for discussion here. However, Yes, there are women that do not use contraception and get pregnant and then want an abortion and pay by the taxpayer. You can’t proof there are none. However, whatever fits with your agenda.

Why would it matter even if there were women who do that? Would it be better if they were forced to have the babies they don't want?
feellikeanalien · 02/09/2021 15:25

But it's not just the fact that they are banning abortion after 6 weeks. It's the fact that anyone can sue someone who has had an abortion or "aided and abetted" that person. This could include doctors, nurses, taxi drivers who drive a person to the clinic, family members who take them to the clinic and any other number of people.

There has been no definition of aided and abetted.

Then if the person bringing the case proves it the victim has to pay 10,000 dollars.

I watched a discussion on CNN about this last night and was absolutely horrified. As a previous PP said a rapist could sue his victim and she would be forced to pay him 10.000 dollars. Doctors carrying out abortions will be targeted.

This is clearly an attempt to overthrow Roe v Wade. Now that the Supreme Court has been packed with conservative justices I fear this is the thin end of the wedge.

If you are anti-abortion could you in all conscience support a woman who has been raped and cannot face going through with the pregnancy then being taken to court and forced to pay her rapist 10.000 dollars. If you do then you are totally lacking in empathy for your fellow human beings.

I have no problem with anyone not believing in abortion but I have a major problem with them trying to force their views on others.

Petardos · 02/09/2021 15:38

Exactly different views are one thing but even if people are saying I am not anti-abortion or a religious nuts but my concerns are so and so.

We definitely live on times of many feeling entitled to rights but not capable or assuming responsibilities.

Petardos · 02/09/2021 15:43

I love that you call me judgemental or rude, and come out with tripe like this. Please educate yourself before judging me. I'd rather be rude than stupid. grin

I think you are both rude and stupid and probably never been in America.

PlanDeRaccordement · 02/09/2021 15:44

I read a study that found that half of abortions are caused by contraception failure. So, honestly, women ARE using contraception. That 99% effective rate means 1 in 100 women will still get pregnant while using that contraception correctly and diligently.

If they want to lower the number of abortions, then they need to develop 100% effective contraception. Not force the unlucky women to give birth.

BiBabbles · 02/09/2021 15:51

US Pro-Life has been around doing this for decades. There is something to the argument that it was used to get evangelicals in the US into politics as a voting group when a long time ago they were largely apolitical before abortion was turned into a hot button issue.

As with any belief, there will be the whole range of motivations and actions that result from it. I know pro-life US evangelicals who run charities to help women with the costs of pregnancy and early child needs as part of their 'mission' to reduce abortion through targeting economic reasons for it & spend a lot of time and energy on it and on donating to causes to help research on the medical reasons for abortions.

I know others who talk a lot of shit but wouldn't do anything even if a child in front of them that they knew was being abused -- but I don't think they often do the 'Life is precious' argument unless we're talking politicians who often are only saying what they do for power. For most typical people like this, they're more likely to say 'it's part of God's plan' even when discussing maternal deaths. For some this might be a strongly held belief, but for most I've known, it's to handwave away issues that they don't want to get into when belonging to a particular community matters more than the pain the community's beliefs cause.

I know others, most of the young people I used to know, who were just raised with that ideal and continuing as they were taught, doing little here and there charity-wise, but it's not really something they spend a lot of time thinking or talking about this & aren't really petitioning their representatives for it. Many of the people who voted for the people involved in this bill weren't voting with this in mind, there are a range of other issues along with just the 'we're a Republican family/I've always voted...' inertia involved as well as a lack of desire of others to vote for anyone else in these areas. Low turnout from lack of faith in the system is a major issue.

While it's laudable to help children in need, it's irrelevant to the PL/PC argument - unless you seriously believe that it's better to be dead than living in poverty.

It's relevant when considering politicians who try to pull the "Life is precious" card as why they're fighting for something they're unlikely to be affected by when there is little evidence in their lives or the rest of their voting to back this belief - they're the ones arguing for this legislation, their morality on this matters. It also matters when considering the communities they're advertising by doing this to keep power who claim this is important to them, but act in very different ways.

The "unless you seriously believe that it's better to be dead than living in poverty." assumes the only argument for ensuring abortion is accessible is economic and that only those in poverty seek abortions or that only children of poor parents are "children in need". None of these are the case. Alongside those, there are a whole realm of medical and social arguments to ensure that women can make that choice safely while doing something as risky as pregnancy and childbirth well beyond economic options (even more risky in the US, statistically).

Many people born as unwanted children in part because of anti-abortion laws and cultural pressures, like me, have argued that our non-existence wouldn't have been the worst thing. I can't do anything that will make right a pregnancy, birth, and raising a child my mother was very vocal she didn't want, by all rights she shouldn't have had to do that and I shouldn't exist. She can't do anything that will make up for the pain and damage she caused me since I do exist.

I do in part blame the community members I knew well who spout shite about the importance "God's plan" and family, but never seemed to think it was part his plan to step in and protect any of us kids - or even my mother. There were so many times they had a cheerful smile and turned their back to keep the image of church going over actual lives.

So yeah, what those who claim an ideology that push into power and wield as power over others actual do and say is relevant for those who suffer the consequences. Yeah, I accept the alternative for me would be never existing to argue this, but I can't really argue that life is automatically better seeing the abuses on children and women within the communities that these politicians are appealing to with this bill. Things are more complicated.

CaptSkippy · 02/09/2021 15:56

@seaandsandcastles

In America a lot of the Christian pro lifers will actually provide and/or find homes for the babies.
So not only are these women forced to give birth, they don't even get to keep the baby they suffered for for nine months. How very loving. /s
Bitofachinwag · 02/09/2021 16:14

@SusieBob

The vast, vast majority do absolutely fuck all.

To them it's not about life at all, it's about punishing women. They just want to stick the boot in to people they see as immoral.

How can you possibly know what people do or what they donate?
MrsSchrute · 02/09/2021 16:15

I am pro life
I believe that life begins at conception, so I obviously cannot condone the deliberate ending of life at any point.
I believe that all life has intrinsic worth and value. That includes both the mother and the unborn child.
I agree that better access to contraception and sex education form part of the answer.
I would never, ever, condemn a woman who had an abortion.
I actively work, both as my job and voluntarily, to support vulnerable women.
Huge amounts of harm has been done in the name of religion, and I would stand against any short of shaming, victim blaming, anything that seeks to put down women. Just as you would.

Hemingwaycat · 02/09/2021 16:17

@seaandsandcastles

In America a lot of the Christian pro lifers will actually provide and/or find homes for the babies.
This is true. I watched the Theroux documentary, there are Christian charities who adopt the babies.
Hemingwaycat · 02/09/2021 16:22

I believe that life begins at conception

You can believe what you want. If you want to believe in fairies and unicorns, you’re free to. Science doesn’t back up your belief though because no life begins at conception. Only a blastocyst, then an embryo and finally a foetus. It isn’t a life, is isn’t alive and before 22 weeks it has no hope in hell of surviving without the human host it lives in. The woman is, however, alive and should have autonomy over her own body.

OuiCestMoi · 02/09/2021 16:25

So not only are these women forced to give birth, they don't even get to keep the baby they suffered for for nine months. How very loving.

Eh? This post makes no sense?

They don't WANT to keep the baby - that's why they want an abortion. If they wanted to keep the baby there would be no need for the baby to be adopted?!

CaptSkippy · 02/09/2021 16:27

@MrsSchrute

I am pro life I believe that life begins at conception, so I obviously cannot condone the deliberate ending of life at any point. I believe that all life has intrinsic worth and value. That includes both the mother and the unborn child. I agree that better access to contraception and sex education form part of the answer. I would never, ever, condemn a woman who had an abortion. I actively work, both as my job and voluntarily, to support vulnerable women. Huge amounts of harm has been done in the name of religion, and I would stand against any short of shaming, victim blaming, anything that seeks to put down women. Just as you would.
Life begins way before conception. The vast majority of the cells in your body are alive. The ones who aren't will eventually be secreted. Bacteria are alive, virusses are alive and tumors are alive. Even sperm cells and ova are alive. We still get rid of most of these and it's perfectly legal.
MrsSchrute · 02/09/2021 16:28

@Hemingwaycat

I believe that life begins at conception

You can believe what you want. If you want to believe in fairies and unicorns, you’re free to. Science doesn’t back up your belief though because no life begins at conception. Only a blastocyst, then an embryo and finally a foetus. It isn’t a life, is isn’t alive and before 22 weeks it has no hope in hell of surviving without the human host it lives in. The woman is, however, alive and should have autonomy over her own body.

It's true, that the foetus wouldn't survive outside of the mother's body, but then a newborn wouldn't survive without an adult to take care of it. So one is of value and the other isn't, even though neither could survive independently?

Also, I am trying to have a respectful conversation. I haven't been disrespectful of your view point, and neither would I be. All I ask for is the same courtesy.

CaptSkippy · 02/09/2021 16:29

@OuiCestMoi

So not only are these women forced to give birth, they don't even get to keep the baby they suffered for for nine months. How very loving.

Eh? This post makes no sense?

They don't WANT to keep the baby - that's why they want an abortion. If they wanted to keep the baby there would be no need for the baby to be adopted?!

If they are forced to stay pregnant and give birth they may not want adoption anymore. Isn't that the whole point? If she has to have the child she should be able to keep it on the state's dime. Women should be given enough money by the state for the rest of their lives for every abortion denied. They may not mind becoming mums if their needs and their children's needs are provided for.
Youseethethingis · 02/09/2021 16:32

alive
adjective
having life; living; existing; not dead or lifeless.

So from conception then. Not more important than the life of the mother, certainly, but definitely not dead and definitely existing. If it was dead or didn't exist there would not be a problem, would there?
Oh and I'm not a human host, I'm a mother.

goinggently · 02/09/2021 16:33

'Pro lifers' .... why aren't the lives of women and girls important to you?

daisyjgrey · 02/09/2021 16:34

They are NOT pro-life. They are pro forced birth, anti abortion, or (lets face it) anti women.

In no way, shape or form can they be described as pro life, seeing as they give not one single fuck about the life of the woman carrying the pregnancy or indeed the child once it is born.

VulvaTeeth · 02/09/2021 16:34

@OuiCestMoi

So not only are these women forced to give birth, they don't even get to keep the baby they suffered for for nine months. How very loving.

Eh? This post makes no sense?

They don't WANT to keep the baby - that's why they want an abortion. If they wanted to keep the baby there would be no need for the baby to be adopted?!

I think the point was that some women have abortions because they are financially unable to have a child or are in an unsuitable situation. Potentially, if assured that they would have financial or practical support, some might choose to continue the pregnancy. Obviously this wouldn't apply to all women, but if the only services provided are "Go through the trauma of birth, then hand the baby over to some nice Christian couple." then it's not great.
MrsSchrute · 02/09/2021 16:34

@goinggently

'Pro lifers' .... why aren't the lives of women and girls important to you?
They are.
Chutedrop · 02/09/2021 16:35

My mum believed that life began at conception. I was taught by nuns and didn’t really know any non catholics. I did get pregnant and my baby was adopted. This was with my consent but as a young teen I question my ability to have consented when surrounded by so much coercion and so much extreme emotion in response to sex outside of marriage. I suspect some of Texas shares that rabid unthinking religious/cultural conservatism of Ireland in 60s/70s. So even before the recent awful changes that seek to criminalise those who put vulnerable women first (it is the most vulnerable most affected as ever) in my experience the over valuing of a foetus/adoption always happened at the expense of women and girls.