Where do these evil people come from? Throughout history

[TerraNovaTwo]

...

Meth- how interesting! Thank you I did not know that-

amp.theguardian.com/books/2016/sep/25/blitzed-norman-ohler-adolf-hitler-nazi-drug-abuse-interview

'Some drugs, however, had their uses, particularly in a society hell bent on keeping up with the energetic Hitler (“Germany awake!” the Nazis ordered, and the nation had no choice but to snap to attention). A substance that could “integrate shirkers, malingerers, defeatists and whiners” into the labour market might even be sanctioned. At a company called Temmler in Berlin, Dr Fritz Hauschild, its head chemist, inspired by the successful use of the American amphetamine Benzedrine at the 1936 Olympic Games, began trying to develop his own wonder drug – and a year later, he patented the first German methyl-amphetamine. Pervitin, as it was known, quickly became a sensation, used as a confidence booster and performance enhancer by everyone from secretaries to actors to train drivers (initially, it could be bought without prescription). It even made its way into confectionery. “Hildebrand chocolates are always a delight,” went the slogan. Women were recommended to eat two or three, after which they would be able to get through their housework in no time at all – with the added bonus that they would also lose weight, given the deleterious effect Pervitin had on the appetite. Ohler describes it as National Socialism in pill form.'

Forgot to mention his parents were also cousins, on top of meth and syphilus

When a mummy and a daddy love each other very very much...

@Thelnebriati

Konrrad Lorenz wrote a book called 'on aggression', which explains how aggression in dogs can start off as a defensive behaviour, which leads to success. If it then doesn't learn better social skills or different strategies, it keeps using aggression. It then escalates and learns to enjoy the feeling of being aggressive. Aggression becomes its own reward.

If you are they type of person that has learned to associate some emotions with a negative value judgement, it can be hard to see that there are people who actively enjoy being spiteful, or a bully, or controlling. They do it because they find it pleasurable.

I believe it's a similar mechanism in humans.

As children/teens they play out their trauma through not being especially nice...but in their case it ends up being somehow reinforced.

@araiwa

Luton

Oh my god, this made me laugh so hard 🤣 😂

True mind.

And yet he was still capable and charismatic enough to get all that support from ordinary people.

Churchill was an extremely heavy drinker with iirc some awful actions around India and Ireland.

Not trying to be provocative but .

Loads of countries have done awful stuff through history. They can only do that if they have support.

Monstering is an easier path for sure. We had the black shirts I think? No historican. The NF were a pretty big deal when I was young.

I dunno. We are what we are. Lots of good lots of bad. And most people just sort of bimbling along.

Bony, Stalin and Hitler all had zeal of the convert, ie.stalin was georgian, hitler austrian, bony corsican/italian but supported nationalism of dominant other countries. Bony possibly & Hitler and Stalin certainly had typical supposed oedipal complexities with pissed abusive fathers and overbearing idolised mothers. All 3 supported ideologies in which the inside groups overides and excuses anything towards its greater purpose.

Culloden isnt particularly evil? Unless we're going for the SNP wrerite version

No evidence at all that Hitler had syphilis. He didnt use meth until the 40s either. He did however almost certainly really have only one ball and came from jewish ancestry-'Hiddler'. He was rejected by a jewish woman and didnt seem to develop anti semitism until post WW1. Also some plausable rumours he was a communist briefly before swinging far right.

Yes interesting I often wonder if pain led to more violent behaviour in general in the past and bad decisions.

Bit of blood letting being offered etc not going to help.

Lead poisoning certainly led to a few poor decisions (understatement ) blogs.transparent.com/latin/the-madness-of-the-emperors-nero-i/

www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02476-w

Interesting short read attached about syphilis and observations that it led to shame about sex with the mental disease - says that a third of patients in institutions could have had it looking back at records being discussed.

Never been to Luton, thanks for the heads up 👍

It seems to me that many people who have done truly evil things have an antisocial personality disorder. That, combined with trauma in their upbringing, and a tendency towards narcissism add up to someone who will stop at nothing to satisfy their impulses and gain influence and power.

The whole roman lead downfall thing was interesting but now also discredited. The behaviour from those lot comes from exageration of biased historians of the time like Suetonius mostly but also family dysfunction, being spoilt and the belief they're continuations of the olymian pantheon id imagine.

DH and I watched a documentary series on The Dunedin Study from New Zealand. They have closely followed the study participants for years and learned a lot about nature/nurture.

If you haven't read about the study, here is a link:

dunedinstudy.otago.ac.nz/

Rostov on Don is very famous for producing serial killers. Studies suggested home births carried out badly in the local area as is custom causes brain damage so more killers

@NiceGerbil yes, it’s funny because I know humans are animals too and I have a lot of time for animals. I prefer them probably. Maybe it doesn’t make sense that we have the option to be better but so many don’t take it or prefer to be selfish /ruthless instead. I was raised surrounded mainly by Buddhists so normal society seems hugely messed up and nasty.

I'm not sure art, technology etc makes up for all the suffering we inflict on other species and our own kind. The only times I feel ok about being human is when I see people doing compassionate things like rewilding, saving Afghan street dogs or floating stranded whales. Not enough.

There’s a lot of othering going on here. Syphilis, brain damage, citing big names etc. But we’re all a little bit like that and some just more than others. How much responsibility are people taking for their own behaviours and ethics day to day?

Yes contentious. Went to Derbyshire mine and interesting to learn about the lead poisoning etc the article attached talks about romans having much higher than modern safe levels but says contentious.

Either way some grim stories. Being in pain can cause people to behave out of character so there must have been lots in a bad mood ?! No expert, but I like to have some Nurofen in my bag and not yet been driven to murder anyone.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29568505

I'm finding it all interesting as well.

No dictators carried out all the atrocities by themselves. They had large numbers of people supporting them. Helping with strategy. Carrying out the actual cruelty on the ground. Looking people in the eye while they did it.

I think it's just so much easier to imagine they were sort of inhuman almost.

Interesting that two posters have cited mothers as contributing to their appalling behaviour!

This putting it down to home births that were carried out badly which is the custom is interesting going to Google!

Ooh lead!

There is apparently a correlation between lead in petrol and 'delinquent' behaviour in young people in areas with more pollution.

Certainly young people seem way less reckless etc than when I was young!

Not sure where I read that.

Anyone can be evil. Look at The Stanford Prison Experiment. Darkness lurks within all of us.

@BrozTito

Rostov on Don is very famous for producing serial killers. Studies suggested home births carried out badly in the local area as is custom causes brain damage so more killers

Do you have a link? Google gives me zero!

Home births or ones attended by people other than docs etc have been the vast majority through history etc. I have heard of one place where the custom is for the woman to go off by herself into the woods and give birth.

So yes fascinating link please!

[quote Berkeys]@NiceGerbil yes, it’s funny because I know humans are animals too and I have a lot of time for animals. I prefer them probably. Maybe it doesn’t make sense that we have the option to be better but so many don’t take it or prefer to be selfish /ruthless instead. I was raised surrounded mainly by Buddhists so normal society seems hugely messed up and nasty.

I'm not sure art, technology etc makes up for all the suffering we inflict on other species and our own kind. The only times I feel ok about being human is when I see people doing compassionate things like rewilding, saving Afghan street dogs or floating stranded whales. Not enough.[/quote]
I think it makes perfect sense tbh. Sort of been wondering for a while and after a long thread about the animal charity in Afghanistan I think I get it.

Because most people are nice tbh. Well at least not horrible! Why ordinary people are capable of doing hideous things under certain circs. And why others look away/ go along with it.

And why so many people are more moved by an advert with an unhappy kitten than an unhappy baby.

This is just a theory! And even if it's reasonable it won't be everyone.

I think it's to do with being too close. Humans doing this to humans. All of the sickening things in the news every day. From local towns to other countries. And what can we do about it? Not much really. And it's us, our species doing this. And the scale esp now wall to wall news is impossible to take in.

How has this happened? Why are they doing this? Has it been made worse by countries that are our allies? It's complicated and horrific and it's everywhere and so people just.. push it away.

A gorgeous kitten or lovely dog well that's easy. They're innocent, it's nothing to do with them, helping is much more straightforward.

The fact that they too are animals and left to their own devices are pretty dangerous. Stray dogs forming packs are really scary and dangerous. Cats are serious highly successful predators.

But I mean I don't think that when I see a cat. I go all soppy.

It does bother me a bit tbh when people seem to genuinly see animals as more vulnerable and innocent than human babies. Cats and dogs are less vulnerable. They survive in all sorts of circs. Human baby can't look after itself at all. I like to think IRL that wouldn't be the action taken should the situation arise.

A russian woman doing psychology at university told me about the rostov thing, still talk to her often though so il ask about accessable reading. I think the guardian also did an article about it years ago.

I googled and nothing.

Do you remember what the custom was to make the births go wrong?

Got to admit given birthing with non medical people is hardly unusual around the world and though history and most people aren't serial killers, it seems odd that they would have a custom to fuck it up and that would be the result.

In all honesty it sounds like whose to blame for all this? Bound to be a woman probably mother. I'll have another Google with some other search terms.

I'll bet she didn't say what the outcome was for all the girls being born that way either!