To ask why the NHS is cancelling operations?!

[CFEC]

I'm due to have a (much needed and waited for) op in a few weeks time, I've just rung my consultant's secretary as I haven't had a pre-op appointment letter through yet and queried it, as I wanted to make sure the operation is definitely going ahead as if nothing else, I'll be off work for 2 weeks and my boss would ideally like confirmation.

She said 'Oh, well they're cancelling A LOT of inpatient appointments, but as you'll be a day patient no, I think yours will go ahead.'

I swear I will lose my sh&^ and cry if it gets cancelled again, this will be the third time!!!

Why is the NHS cancelling operations left, right and centre?! Surely it can't be due to Covid still? If it is, what is going to happen to us all, so many people are going to die surely as a result of not getting treatment? A lot more than with Covid! Most people are double vaccinated now, this virus isn't going away, why are operations for in patients being cancelled?

@SophieHMS, sorry to spoil your narrative but I didn’t vote Tory so not sure why you have no sympathy (not that I need/ want your sympathy

The NHS as it is at the moment isn’t fit for purpose and isn’t working, something needs to change. I don’t know exactly what that something is, yes more funding but if it’s not going to get that then something else needs to happen. Isn’t there something like 67 million of us in the U.K.? Surely that’s a lot more than when the NHS was first introduced, we have an ageing population and an ever increasing population, if more funding isn’t going to happen soon then realistically, what else can we do to make this system better? Because as PP have pointed out, it isn’t just a NHS OR a USA style health service, there are many countries that operate successful health services that are somewhere in the middle and if things carry on like this and the government (whichever government that is) refuses to pour the money in that’s needed then SOMETHING else needs to change because it’s not fair or sustainable to NHS staff or patients.

Read what NHS workers are saying on the other NHS thread doing the rounds, then get an idea about how bad things are. You will see most of it revolves around lack of staff and increasing work load - not enough bodies to do the work - how on earth introducing private insurance into the mix will suddenly cause of flood of money into the system god only knows .

if more funding isn’t going to happen soon then realistically, what else can we do to make this system better?

Nothing. Because the bottom line is that nothing can be achieved without investment. Staff shortages can only be addressed by training more staff. Every change you can suggest costs money. Lots of money. It’s not even as if it’s not available. If we stopped HS2 and its ilk, we could afford to invest in the nation’s health. It would even be a vote winner.

@Blossomtoes

if more funding isn’t going to happen soon then realistically, what else can we do to make this system better?

Nothing. Because the bottom line is that nothing can be achieved without investment. Staff shortages can only be addressed by training more staff. Every change you can suggest costs money. Lots of money. It’s not even as if it’s not available. If we stopped HS2 and its ilk, we could afford to invest in the nation’s health. It would even be a vote winner.

Money can't solve the staffing crisis. Staff take years to train, and we've already been increasing the number of training positions recently. But, today's medical students won't become fully trained doctors for several years.

We need to look at why staff are leaving, and no, it's not all about money. Just look at GPs - very well paid, but they're leaving for other reasons, such as stress, workload etc. Blair gave them a whopping pay rise and reduced hours etc., "to solve the GP shortage" but it didn't work.

We need to look at more flexible shift working, more family friendly hours of working, better working conditions, etc., to keep the staff we have and attract leavers back into the NHS.

Money can't solve the staffing crisis

It can, it’s the only thing that can. It just can’t happen overnight. Do you seriously think your suggestions have no financial implications?

@Blossomtoes

Money can't solve the staffing crisis

It can, it’s the only thing that can. It just can’t happen overnight. Do you seriously think your suggestions have no financial implications?

My point is that money isn't the ONLY factor. Blair/Brown trebled the NHS funding but such a whopping increase in budget didn't make that much of a difference because it wasn't spent wisely and the necessary reforms/efficiencies weren't carried out.

We can double the NHS funding again, but unless they sort out all it's problems re staff retention, organisation efficiencies, etc., then it's just pouring more money into the leaky bucket.

Paying staff more doesn't help if the staff are burned out, stressed out, or have left the NHS due to shift patterns. We need to look beyond money to the core problems. Yes, more money is PART of the solution, but it's not the solution on it's own.

Blair/Brown trebled the NHS funding but such a whopping increase in budget didn't make that much of a difference

It made a huge difference. I don’t know why people keep endlessly repeating this myth.

www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/general-election-2010/waiting-times

Money won't solve the crisis by itself, many of those who are leaving are burnt out no matter what an additional few hundred in their pay might say. It would perhaps work as a temporary bandage- keeping people in their jobs until they find something else, which could be a few months longer than they planned to stay. Long term it would help in conjunction with others things, it's not always about just wanting more money, but the fact that for some bands you can get jobs for a lot less responsibility for the same or only slightly less; so why struggle on?

The investment needs to be in education- bring back the diploma, we miss out on a load of capable potential nurses as they can't afford to do an access course as well as a degree. Extend apprentiships. Don't charge course fees, or if you do then at least pay more of a bursary, as a student you do often make up numbers (even though you shouldn't), and it's really hard to work alongside, if not impossible unless you have a very flexible job. Be more flexible

Invest in the infrastructure, it might not seem important, but working in a hospital that's falling apart with no actual areas for staff and crap car parking you have to pay for (if lucky enough to get a space) isn't particularly motivating; importantly be better for patients too. Introduce actual flexibility, I worked with an amazing colleague who ended up a single mum and couldn't go on with shift work, yet wasn't approved to work other shifts, bizarre when so short.

To improve staffing will also improve retention, it will take time but it's the only way. You can buy all the beds and all the equipment you like, but if you don't have competent and qualified staff to use it then what's the point.

Absolutely agree @Peacrock. More investment in education, in staff retention. No amount of stress workshops will remedy the pressures staff are under.
@user1497207191 all those things cost money. Family friendly hours, flexible working....

[quote frumpety]@CBUK22 is the Virgin care GP open to everyone, if it was put in to reduce attendance at A&E or only open to everyone after normal GP opening hours ? Who staffs the out of hours GP service over night ?[/quote]
I can't say "everyone" for sure but it's a local walk in service and I've never heard of anyone being turned away.

It's not open 24/7, its roughly 7am to 11pm from memory. It's not a catch all, as I understand it, it is to catch the people who our full time GP's are paid to care for but they make it very difficult to see.

In the 21st century the Virgin practice seems a lot more like what healthcare should be.

@PaddingtonsHat

'My sister is a nurse and they have had 3 Dr's leave her department because the local trust will not allow them to see patients. Nurses are taking observations and completing procedures while Dr's are locked in offices in full PPE away form patients.'

@CBUK22 must have imagined my full list of face to face febrile patients yesterday then.

I can only base my experience on being a patron of our local NHS trust.

There may be other parts of the system that actually work, but my first hand experience, the care my loved ones and I has been abysmal.

@Blossomtoes they are a private organisation providing the services my NHS GP is already paid to provide.

And yes, I'm aware many GP practices are pseudo private companies providing services to the NHS.

The difference being I can actually see a Dr with Virgin, its a while since I've attended their surgery but there was obvious virgin branding present on paperwork etc when last I visited.

[quote Blossomtoes]Blair/Brown trebled the NHS funding but such a whopping increase in budget didn't make that much of a difference

It made a huge difference. I don’t know why people keep endlessly repeating this myth.

www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/general-election-2010/waiting-times[/quote]
Waiting times, yes, but quality of service and outcomes, no. My FIL and mother both suffered at the hands of the NHS is the late noughties. It was all about targets and bugger all about care and compassion for the patient. Box ticking was all that mattered.

We had to go to A&E several times over that period. It was a standing joke for us that we'd be out just before 4 hours or we'd be stuck there all day. If they couldn't meet the 4 hour target, they basically ignored you and prioritised all the other patients they could get in and out within 4 hours.

Same with targets for cancer operations. My FIL had cancer that needed an operation which had a "target". When he couldn't meet the target, they basically left him languishing on wards for several weeks, prioritising other patients, and by the time they got around to the op, it was too late.

Those targets, so loved by Blair and his followers, were evil. They were binary - if the NHS couldn't hit the target, you were ignored. If targets are going to be used, then they need to be on a sliding scale score, where you get more points for doing it quicker and fewer points the longer it's left. That way there isn't the "cut off" when a target can't be met.

@borntobequiet

I've been saying for years that it should be privatised

It’s unclear how that would help, especially if you think the US model is the way to go. That’s very expensive, even for those who are insured, and leaves many with inadequate or no medical care. The NHS, for all its faults, is cost-efficient and, at its best, unbeatable for the quality of care it provides. As pp have said, decades of underinvestment and politically motivated reorganisation have blunted its effectiveness and reduced the morale of staff.

There is a bizarre instance that the only options for healthcare are the borderline communist NHS and the extremes of the US model.

Lots of countries have mandatory insurance contributions, which pay for treatment at a range of public and privately owned care providers.

Some countries even offer crazy options like being able to opt for different levels of care for different levels of contribution.

Unless you allow patients to act like customers and vote with their feet the NHS as a monopoly have little or no incentive to improve services offered.

@user1497207191 The ridiculous system of targets lead to nonsense like people being on waiting lists to go on a waiting list.

I’ve recently been diagnosed with breast cancer. I can’t fault the NHS at the moment.
However, as an NHS professional it’s a shower of s@!t.
Just glad that the cogs are well oiled when you really need it.

Covid.

I'm a HCP I've worked on the NHS for 35 years its never been this bad we are chronically underfunded. I regularly see patients being cancelled an hour before their routine ops are due to be done. They are in hospital actually in a bed or at the very least sharing a bed with someone about to be discharged and then they loose their ITU bed, or a key member of the operating staff gets covid19 or beds are shut because there's insufficient staff. And then there's Covid 19 are you aware that yesterday in the UK there were 6934 patients in hospital with Covid 19, 942 in ITU alone.
Then the icing on the cake is our ageing population people are living much longer but not healthier lives and often need complicated and prolonged admissions. When I started on a medical ward you'd have a few in the 80's most would be in their 70's the other day I went onto a typical medical ward nearly everyone was in the 80's quite a few in the 90's and even a couple who are 100. Age teams you get better slower you often require more input form physios OTs to get better and many will need to be discharged to social care this all takes time.
Finally we have a chronic staffing shortage someone once told me 45% of NHS can retire in the next 5 years many HCPs are exhausted and demoralised Covid 19 was the final straw. So many of these staff with years and years of experience under their belts are physical and emotionally exhausted from working in a high pressure environment incredibly environment usually now for 13 hours at a time with what they feel is little or no support, many are looking at easier roles, less hours, bank/agency work for more flexibility or even career changes.
A nursing job advertised in my trust which 5 years ago would have been considered a bit boring and dull and thus very difficult to fill had 35 applicants, jobs in acute settings get no applicants. Many have simply had enough and covid 19 has had a big impact on us, our trust lost two youngish doctors (50's), and many of us have seen again youngish people die or we see patients again youngish who are now experiencing life effecting changes from covid19 so many staff particularly those who have retirement round the corner are rethinking their lives.

@user1497207191

If we are going to go anecdotal, well my experience of the NHS under Thatcher, Blair and then again under the present day Tories couldn't be more stark.
Also, most of the modern hospitals we have in the NHS estate is due to Labours PFI, not perfect but what would the NHS be like without these?

Nothing is perfect, even the much touted european systems but to have a response to staff shortages by charging full fees for healthcare students is a bit stupid - it caused a huge drop off in young people training in Health, which of course was the plan.....

Wreck the service, privatise, insurance.. end Free healthcare at the point of use.... job done - the sell off of NHS resources will raise billions for the treasury - just as council housing, trains, water, energy etc did for previous tory governments.

Having worked as a nurse under both labour and the Tories, I can tell you that the NHS was much better under labour. Not perfect at all but the systematic dismantling under Tories is shocking.

I work in elective surgery so need to ensure our ward stays green however, when a&e gets full our beds get used. We now have a combination of elderly medical patients and elective patients on the same ward. The elective patients are often quite sick due to waiting for surgery, whilst the elderly often medically fit but can't go home as no one to provide ongoing care. This sadly means we are left without beds for our elective patients so are often cancelled on the day.

There is no plan, it's day by day and hope we can get patients in. It's stressful and dangerous, we are expected to carry on with reduced staffing, very sick patient's and often without breaks. We could work to rule but won't because we worry about the outcome for patients and, we would be blamed for any issues as a result.

I had an argument the other day about moving staff, we would have been left in a dangerous situation, caring for post op patients and elderly who require all care, I lost and staff got moved, I felt so stressed I wanted to cry, I didn't, I carried on and finally had my 15 minute coffee break 7 hours into my 13 hour day.

We are having outbreaks of covid on several wards, all we are being told is the need to discharge patients ASAP, often unsafely. Beds are not empty before we have a list of names waiting and if one patient cannot go home as unwell, we have to start transfering. There is no plan. I arrived to a full ward the other day but 11 electives to get in, it was horrible. This is what happened, all the patients transferred overnight to us were transferred back less than 12 hours later. The time, manpower and room for error is unbelievable.

I don't know how much I and my colleagues can go on for, the NHS is not fit for purpose.

@Rupertpenrysmistress

I hear you. I worked a s a nurse first under Tories, then Labour, then Tories again. The only time working in the NHS ever felt positive and rewarding was under the Labour Government. It was exciting to have a Government that wanted to invest and drive up standards of care, and actually put the money where their mouth was.

Then it all got destroyed when this lot came in.
Sigh..... It will take years to undo the damage.

@CFEC

For those asking why I won’t pay for healthcare if I have the means, I have tried!! The waiting list currently for private is longer than my scheduled op in a few weeks, much longer in fact. The receptionist at the private hospital said people are going over to private in droves as they’re not getting the care from the NHS and now private are struggling to cope and have 4 month waiting lists.

Also, my op will cost £5,500 private, we have £6k in savings...it would pretty much wipe us out and leave nothing for an emergency fund should one of us lose our jobs, boiler breaks etc. So I’m reluctant to pay to go private unless I absolutely have to. (And yes before people start I do realise I’m lucky that we have 6k in savings blah blah, it’s hardly an astronomical amount though!!) I’ll try one last time on the NHS.

Oh. Of course

It would wipe out your savings.

So it’s not that urgent then is it.

@Rupertpenrysmistress

Having worked as a nurse under both labour and the Tories, I can tell you that the NHS was much better under labour. Not perfect at all but the systematic dismantling under Tories is shocking.

I work in elective surgery so need to ensure our ward stays green however, when a&e gets full our beds get used. We now have a combination of elderly medical patients and elective patients on the same ward. The elective patients are often quite sick due to waiting for surgery, whilst the elderly often medically fit but can't go home as no one to provide ongoing care. This sadly means we are left without beds for our elective patients so are often cancelled on the day.

There is no plan, it's day by day and hope we can get patients in. It's stressful and dangerous, we are expected to carry on with reduced staffing, very sick patient's and often without breaks. We could work to rule but won't because we worry about the outcome for patients and, we would be blamed for any issues as a result.

I had an argument the other day about moving staff, we would have been left in a dangerous situation, caring for post op patients and elderly who require all care, I lost and staff got moved, I felt so stressed I wanted to cry, I didn't, I carried on and finally had my 15 minute coffee break 7 hours into my 13 hour day.

We are having outbreaks of covid on several wards, all we are being told is the need to discharge patients ASAP, often unsafely. Beds are not empty before we have a list of names waiting and if one patient cannot go home as unwell, we have to start transfering. There is no plan. I arrived to a full ward the other day but 11 electives to get in, it was horrible. This is what happened, all the patients transferred overnight to us were transferred back less than 12 hours later. The time, manpower and room for error is unbelievable.

I don't know how much I and my colleagues can go on for, the NHS is not fit for purpose.

Thank you.

I'm sorry that there isn't more help and hope at the next general election a better NHS is the top talking and voting point. I wouldn't mind paying more tax.