To stay in this relationship

[workworkbloodywork]

Long term curtain twitcher, first time posting.

I'm not quite sure how I've ended up here but I need help in figuring out what to you and so thought maybe you ladies are the people to help.

So I have a DS under 12 and a DP who I have a DD with.

When we got together he was amazing with my DS. We spent 18 months living with a relative whilst saving for a house and this property allowed for evenings playing football in the garden and time was spent together.

We bought our first house together and although he changed slightly in being precious about hands touching walls, all remained mostly well, we had a much smaller garden and so the football playing stopped.

I then had DD and as my DS has matured the relationship has gone south.
They rarely have a nice word pass between them.

Reasons for this are as my DS has grown he has developed a strong feeling of protection for his DF who is utterly bloody useless. Pays no Maintenance, refused to see his DS over most of Covid, doesn't help out anytime. My DP is exasperated at the ex DP total lack of responsibility towards his son.
I have to add that he never wants to see my DS go without and will often taken to get new shoes if his are scruffy or worn out. Will get thoughtful gifts of personalised football boots and so on. He feels that my ex DO takes advantage of me and gets annoyed at me not causing more of a fuss.
My reasoning for this is that I don't desperately need the money, I grew up with split parenting and hated feeling being in the middle of them arguing or projecting their feelings onto me.
So now there is this complete resentment from both DP and DS towards each other. There isn't even civility anymore, just constant arguing making me feel like a referee.

As a DP this man is caring, loyal, helpful, an outstanding father to our DD, would do anything I asked of him.

I don't see how I can continue on in this relationship with the way that their relationship is though. So ladies.... wtf do I do here?

Your ex is your business, not his. He should not be playing ‘I’m better than your dad’ with a young child for god’s sake.

How long have you been together?

I don't see how I can continue on in this relationship with the way that their relationship is though.

No, you can’t.

You are sort of taking advantage of your current DP though, if he's having to buy your DS stuff so the kid doesn't go without. You "don't need the money" from ex? Well no that's not really true, because DP is making up the shortfall! Not surprised if he's a bit resentful.

He's acting as parent whilst being told by DS he's not as good as useless ex, that's going to hurt. And your condoning it. Although he's the adult so should be the bigger person. Maybe DS is beginning to see the truth of his father and is lashing out at the person who reminds him with good behaviour just how awful his own father is? DS is old enough to have some manners though and not act so ungrateful towards DP. Do you need a conversation with DS along the lines of DP isn't trying to take the place of his father, but he is trying to be a good step father and doesn't deserve to be treated like shit? Is DS feeling like he doesn't belong in the family now there's a shared biological child between you? Do you need family counselling to get things back on track?

Why is your DP even talking about your sons father in front of him let alone in a negative manner?

He may be the worst father in the world but he's still your sons father and he shouldn't be saying anything in front of your son, it's none of his business.

Of course your sons going to react and I would in his situation as well. My parents are divorced and if they even start saying anything negative about each other I get them to stop. I love them both and I don't want to hear it.

Have you talked to him? Your partner, I mean.

I think sometimes it is easy for people to think that 12 is all grown up, when really, your son is probably just coming to grips with his dad being a deadbeat.
What outcome is your partner looking for here? Would he like for your son to hate his dad? Is that really in your son's best interest?

Also as shit as he is, nobody should be badmouthing your ex in DS's presence. If that's happening it should stop because it's not fair on DS and will make him feel like he has to stick up for his dad. Children are programmed for survival to love their parents no matter how bad they are. If DP is taking out his frustration about your ex on DS, that needs to stop too. So maybe a conversation needed with DP too.

What is ds like with his kid sister?

@Merryoldgoat

Your ex is your business, not his. He should not be playing ‘I’m better than your dad’ with a young child for god’s sake.

How long have you been together?

Nearly 6 years

@Hummingbird1950

You are sort of taking advantage of your current DP though, if he's having to buy your DS stuff so the kid doesn't go without. You "don't need the money" from ex? Well no that's not really true, because DP is making up the shortfall! Not surprised if he's a bit resentful.

He's acting as parent whilst being told by DS he's not as good as useless ex, that's going to hurt. And your condoning it. Although he's the adult so should be the bigger person. Maybe DS is beginning to see the truth of his father and is lashing out at the person who reminds him with good behaviour just how awful his own father is? DS is old enough to have some manners though and not act so ungrateful towards DP. Do you need a conversation with DS along the lines of DP isn't trying to take the place of his father, but he is trying to be a good step father and doesn't deserve to be treated like shit? Is DS feeling like he doesn't belong in the family now there's a shared biological child between you? Do you need family counselling to get things back on track?

He doesn't have to do any of what he does, I have never asked him to pay for anything towards him. It is his own choice to do so. We have pretty much the same income level with mine being a bit higher but not by much.

I do not condone any of it, we have had multiple talks between myself and DP where I've asked him to be to the parent but the friend and to leave all discipline to me but he can't help get involved.
He is fortunate enough to have grown up with parents that are still together so have me no empathy for what it's like having separated parents.
I've also tried to explain to DS that he has many reasons to be grateful to having DP in his life and if he listened a little more and wasn't so rude to him we would all have a nicer time of it.

@spotcheck

Have you talked to him? Your partner, I mean.

I think sometimes it is easy for people to think that 12 is all grown up, when really, your son is probably just coming to grips with his dad being a deadbeat.
What outcome is your partner looking for here? Would he like for your son to hate his dad? Is that really in your son's best interest?

I think he would like my DS to recognise that his dad isn't perfect, which is unacceptable in my opinion, DS should have the realisation for himself when he's ready to get there. DP hates that my ex's refusal to do as he should do to work gets defended when we both work full time too yet still put him first.

@RedHelenB

What is ds like with his kid sister?

He is a brilliant older brother to her, he does sometimes feel as though she gets preferential treatment. She doesn't, she just a toddler and Dana DS more attention and grows quicker so needs more things. DS also conveniently forgets or doesn't acknowledge when he gets things and she doesn't and that he also gets indulged with going to see friends and has time with his dad so isn't always around, which I completely understand the perspective of that considering his age and gently point this out which he will then accept.

Your DP needs to understand that his own personal frustration at your ex is his own personal issue to deal with.

I’d make any discussion of my ex completely off the table. Hard rule. No mentioning him.

Why is he getting involved in the relationship between your DS and his father? His father may well be useless but DS will realise that on his own, in time, if that's the case and needs to be allowed his own space to do that. I absolutely agree with you that it's immensely damaging to children to be exposed totoxic relationships between their parents/ different family members: research shows very strongly that the damage of separated families is not from separation itself, but only happens if the parents do not co-parent well post-separation or if damaging step-parents or blended families are forced on the children subsequently.

Why is this man even commenting on your son's father? You need to lay down a hard boundary that this is unacceptable if he wants the relationship to work. Ideally this should have been done before you got very involved and certainly before having another child. Unfortunately now, you cannot sacrifice your DS's psychological wellbeing in the long term for your DD's so your only options really are a frank chat with your new partner that this stops immediately, or he leaves.

You need to separate DS being grateful for what he has done for the family (if he genuinely is? He may see it differently, have you asked him?) from DP causing issues about DS having a relationship with his DF. Unless the DF has been abusive, that's totally inappropriate and no matter how much of a good partner you think he is to you or a good father to your daughter, you need to tell him that this stops of you will leave the relationship. Your child from the first relationship cannot be a sacrificial lamb.

I think he would like my DS to recognise that his dad isn't perfect, which is unacceptable in my opinion, DS should have the realisation for himself when he's ready to get there.

Nail on head, OP. So you already know the answer.

Stop this now. DS is a child, already damaged by family breakup and expected to adjust to a new family. Your DP being negative about his father is unacceptable (as I said, unless he is actually abusive).

This is really damaging stuff that messes up kids and makes them feel torn between worlds. It is not ok, you are the adults and however you feel you all need to do what is best for DS - the child in the middle of it all - or your DP must get out of his life if he cannot do that. Taking him shopping for trainers doesn't compensate for long term psychological damage that will be done by living through family animosity especially during the teenage years that he is about to start. Do not do this to your son. Lay down a red line, and mean it.

Pays no Maintenance, refused to see his DS over most of Covid, doesn't help out anytime.
Or
and has time with his dad so isn't always around
Which is it?

Your DP is projecting his frustration / dislike of your ex on to your DS. He is wrong and needs to take responsibility for that.

Your DS may love his dad, crave his attention and take your DP for granted. It’s what happens, your DS is struggling with his own feelings but he is young. Does DP not realise that the more he criticises and compares your ex in front of your son the more he highlights the rejection your DS feels? It sort of has a countering effect.

Your DP should be more secure in himself and not be seeking approval from a child. As you say your DS will, in his own time, realise where his loyalties lie.

Sounds like dp stopped making the effort with ds when you moved house anyway; they could still go play football in a park or something or do other stuff together

I can’t tell from your OP whether this is bad enough that you feel you want to walk away (which would be reasonable) or whether you still feel this ought to be fixable. If the latter, I think you need to set some clear boundaries, for yourself and for DP and then stick to them.

I wonder whether you could tell your DP that the topic of DSs dad is off limits for him and that he has to ignore DSs comments or refer them on to you, every single time? Explain that though you fully accept DSs attitude about his dad is irrational, it’s a natural phase he has to move past before he can draw his own conclusions and that arguing with him will only cause your son to dig in deeper, because that’s human nature. Explain that this is reaching a position where it is going to be a dealbreaker if it doesn’t stop, and then if it doesn’t stop you have a definitive reason to break up.

It also sounds like there’s something of a bone of contention between the two of you regarding the lack of maintenance. You give two reasons for this:

My reasoning for this is that I don't desperately need the money, I grew up with split parenting and hated feeling being in the middle of them arguing or projecting their feelings onto me.

You don’t need the money is reasonable. However, unless you keep all your finances wholly separate, it will have some impact on your joint financial situation, so I can understand that DP would find it frustrating.

But the other reason doesn’t feel like a valid point. I feel you could chase maintenance without it having a direct impact on your son. From what you say, it sounds as if he doesn’t have a huge amount of contact with his dad, and from your side, you could chase the money without your DS ever being aware. If your ex is an ass about it to your son, then it’s another demonstration of his poor parenting to your son. He will have you as a role model for the fact that parents don’t need to argue or project.

I realise if you chase the money and your ex doesn’t pay, then DP will be equally or more annoyed with your ex, but it wouldn’t be a bone of contention between the two of you. If you do keep your finances wholly separate and it really has no impact on your DP, then that’s a slightly different scenario and every time DP brings it up, you’d need to spell it out that it has no impact unless he chooses to allow it to do so.

I can’t tell really whether this is fixable. I left my ex because the teenage years with our sons were impossible. I feel like some men are crap with teenage boys and unwilling to stop themselves competing with them, but that’s only based on personal experience and speaking to other women who’ve experienced the same. I walked away from my ex because there had been mildly abusive behaviour over many years and it peaked when our boys were teenagers. But given that your DP sounds like he’s been a reasonable stepdad to your son, up to this point, I wonder whether you feel it’s worth trying to get the relationship over this hump, rather than throwing it away immediately. Maybe DP is also abusive in other ways, in which case walking away is likely the right thing to do..But only you can decide that.

Your DP is the adult and he shouldn’t be punishing DS for his dad’s faults or expecting acknowledgement of how much he does from a 12yo.

Have you asked DP how he would feel if someone was doing this to his DD, punishing her for a parent’s failings?

And on your side, have you applied for child maintenance, are you firm with ex about when he can see DS etc?

@choli

Pays no Maintenance, refused to see his DS over most of Covid, doesn't help out anytime. Or and has time with his dad so isn't always around Which is it?

Both, he's never paid as said that it was my choice to leave that relationship, he was very controlling and mentally abusive. He use to be reliable and then Covid hit and he refused contact due to his new families health. He has been very unreliable since and always quotes work as he reasoning. He is self employed and works locally!

@Faevern

Your DP is projecting his frustration / dislike of your ex on to your DS. He is wrong and needs to take responsibility for that.

Your DS may love his dad, crave his attention and take your DP for granted. It’s what happens, your DS is struggling with his own feelings but he is young. Does DP not realise that the more he criticises and compares your ex in front of your son the more he highlights the rejection your DS feels? It sort of has a countering effect.

Your DP should be more secure in himself and not be seeking approval from a child. As you say your DS will, in his own time, realise where his loyalties lie.

I have pointed this out several times to a brick wall it would seem.

@Shoxfordian

Sounds like dp stopped making the effort with ds when you moved house anyway; they could still go play football in a park or something or do other stuff together

They do still do stuff just not as frequently. He had a few extra days holiday and had both children and they did get on for that, they went on bikes rides and so on.

@AnyOldPrion

I can’t tell from your OP whether this is bad enough that you feel you want to walk away (which would be reasonable) or whether you still feel this ought to be fixable. If the latter, I think you need to set some clear boundaries, for yourself and for DP and then stick to them.

I wonder whether you could tell your DP that the topic of DSs dad is off limits for him and that he has to ignore DSs comments or refer them on to you, every single time? Explain that though you fully accept DSs attitude about his dad is irrational, it’s a natural phase he has to move past before he can draw his own conclusions and that arguing with him will only cause your son to dig in deeper, because that’s human nature. Explain that this is reaching a position where it is going to be a dealbreaker if it doesn’t stop, and then if it doesn’t stop you have a definitive reason to break up.

It also sounds like there’s something of a bone of contention between the two of you regarding the lack of maintenance. You give two reasons for this:

My reasoning for this is that I don't desperately need the money, I grew up with split parenting and hated feeling being in the middle of them arguing or projecting their feelings onto me.

You don’t need the money is reasonable. However, unless you keep all your finances wholly separate, it will have some impact on your joint financial situation, so I can understand that DP would find it frustrating.

But the other reason doesn’t feel like a valid point. I feel you could chase maintenance without it having a direct impact on your son. From what you say, it sounds as if he doesn’t have a huge amount of contact with his dad, and from your side, you could chase the money without your DS ever being aware. If your ex is an ass about it to your son, then it’s another demonstration of his poor parenting to your son. He will have you as a role model for the fact that parents don’t need to argue or project.

I realise if you chase the money and your ex doesn’t pay, then DP will be equally or more annoyed with your ex, but it wouldn’t be a bone of contention between the two of you. If you do keep your finances wholly separate and it really has no impact on your DP, then that’s a slightly different scenario and every time DP brings it up, you’d need to spell it out that it has no impact unless he chooses to allow it to do so.

I can’t tell really whether this is fixable. I left my ex because the teenage years with our sons were impossible. I feel like some men are crap with teenage boys and unwilling to stop themselves competing with them, but that’s only based on personal experience and speaking to other women who’ve experienced the same. I walked away from my ex because there had been mildly abusive behaviour over many years and it peaked when our boys were teenagers. But given that your DP sounds like he’s been a reasonable stepdad to your son, up to this point, I wonder whether you feel it’s worth trying to get the relationship over this hump, rather than throwing it away immediately. Maybe DP is also abusive in other ways, in which case walking away is likely the right thing to do..But only you can decide that.

I really am unsure myself at the moment, I feel like I am stood at the T junction. I am really concerned about the teenage years, I can't see how if we continued as we are that it wouldn't impact negatively onto mine and my DS relationship in the long run and I don't know how to get through this. I feel like we've had all the conversations we possibly can have and DP just isn't getting it.

My first thought is that your DP should keep out of anything to do with your ex. He should not voice any opinion of him in any way that your DS could read or hear.
Very frequently these relationships sour as kids head towards the teens, it should be anticipated.
I hope you manage to work it out, but ultimately you should put your son first.

I feel like we've had all the conversations we possibly can have and DP just isn't getting it.

Sounds like you’re at ultimatum time. DP, I love you, but if you can’t stop commenting on my ex - to me, or to my DS - then I’ve decided we’ll have to separate. It’s that important to me. I don’t want to go - I want you to leave the subject of my ex completely alone. But if you feel you can’t, that’s your choice.