Do you think there is a Rich and Poor Mindset?

[Brogues]

I only came across this theory (Rich dad Poor dad) a couple of weeks ago and I’m not sure or maybe we’ll never be able to not think ‘poor’?

Me and DH were brought up ‘poor’ - comfortable but in council housing, with working parents but worried about unexpected bills. We both went to university are now professionals in our work and are high earners (not top 1% of Mumsnetters by any means admittedly) so ‘rich’ but we still buy stuff like TVs rather than focusing on investments. Can we get out of our ‘poor’ mindset or isn’t there one in the first place?

Nicked from google:

@opaleyes2

pointing out your crass statement and made up statistic

Except it wasn't my statement or statistic was it? I just agreed with the general principle. For the second time what part of that is confusing you?

Just so you know, I actually grew up on a council estate with bailiff visits and all sorts of craziness you wouldn't have been exposed to in your self admitted ivory tower. So don't attempt be a social justice warrior or be a voice for people who have actually experienced poverty first hand.

😆 I said my background helped because it did. Don't confuse that with an ivory tower though as my parents are immigrants who came to this country with nothing & my mum left her family behind at 17 for a better life. Her family are still there so I'm fully aware what poverty looks like.

Furthermore, Sociology and Psychology where my chosen subjects, so you can imagine calling me uneducated has really hit a nerve

Clearly! although I didn't call you uneducated, I said educate yourself. I thought it beneficial to link to some actual statistics as I was unsure if you knew the difference between them & your anecdotal data of I know lots of working class lads who set up their own electric, plumbing and building companies after 15/20 years of hard graft as employees.

I certainly didn't say anything to warrant your condescending rant.

The statistics I posted were also a benefit to the general thread. I'm not sure why you found them condescending?

I merely pointed out that saying 99% of rich people got their by luck or family is wrong. I'm living proof!

Again I didn't say that did I? But by your logic the above doesn't even mean what you think it does because I'm sure you understand that 99% is not the same as 100%? So your living proof of what exactly?

Comprehension is clearly not a strength of yours!

All middle class twaddle. Where does a bloke who earns £50k operating a digger on a building site fit into this? Or a trucker earning £60k.

Saying someone "needs to educate" themselves on a topic is the same as saying someone is not educated in that topic, whichever way you try to wrangle it.

"You know what poverty looks like"
Yet you haven't actually experienced it for yourself.

"I thought it beneficial to link to some actual statistics as I was unsure if you knew the difference between them & your anecdotal data" Yet more condescension.

Just so we are clear, I didn't offer "anecdotal data" to dispute social mobility, as I have said previously I don't entirely disagree. Though there are various reasons behind such stats but that would be a whole other essay. I offered my life experiences and observations as an example to refute the comment that you had agreed with.

Which part of telling a grown woman they need to educate themselves is NOT condescending? Realistically, you threw out some stats to deflect from the fact that you had initially agreed with an incorrect statement. You have now said it was for the benefit of the thread even though you had specifically tagged me in your response and assumed I don't know the difference between real statistics and my own stories!!!

Patronisation is clearly a strength of yours!

"educate yourself" is so aggressive. If someone uses it at me, I simply walk/click away. Though it's very rarely used.
I always imagine peoples face when they type that and it's not a friendly smile.

Omg @opaleyes2 you need to let it go.

You know what poverty looks like" Yet you haven't actually experienced it for yourself.

Again how do you know what poverty Ive experienced?

"I thought it beneficial to link to some actual statistics as I was unsure if you knew the difference between them & your anecdotal data" Yet more condescension.

Again statistical data is far more beneficial to this conversation then anecdotal data but you can disagree.

Just so we are clear, I didn't offer "anecdotal data"

Except you did but again you can disagree.

Realistically, you threw out some stats to deflect from the fact that you had initially agreed with an incorrect statement

But the stats were relevant to the thread, it's not all about you.
I'm glad you've finally acknowledged that it was not my actual statement despite stating it was, that's progress!! 👏🏻

'Educate yourself' when used in this context is deeply offensive given the huge educational and wealth divide in the country, by highlighting a person's lack of education it is effectively blaming/victim blaming if you like, as if they had the CHOICE of where they were educated and raised when clearly they do not.
They are sum product of a system of underinvestment, poor quality and substandard teaching, sometimes parenting and have been badly let down by society as a whole.
If we had a well resourced school system of quality and equality then you could argue that the child, now adult had the choice to pay more attention/try harder, but without knowing the persons' possible SEN or personal limitations it is a damaging comment made in any context, and one I would immediately call out if I heard it.

Educate yourself - can sometimes mean research the facts, often said in annoyance when an intelligent person appears to not have bothered to check facts properly. We see it on here sometimes.

Educate yourself when said in a more general way or tied up with wealth creation or lack of is very demeaning and dehumanising comment, and should never be used

Investment vs. Expenditure:
Some truth here, but the differences are often an understandable result of income inequality rather than the cause of it. Who doesn't need a little pick-me-up treat to make life feel a bit better, the difference is how much you have left afterwards. Even if you invested all your coffee/nails/car valet spending, it is not going to make wealth to anywhere near the extent of someone with a top 1% salary, or inheritance etc. Social class and mobility comes into play too. Plus if you don't have much money you can't afford the type of financial planning rich people can. Money makes money.

I do perhaps see a mindset whereby some people from poorer backgrounds make money, but then spend it flashily, and that's more to do with the social class system, people trying to prove their worth. Within a generation they'll be investing, putting their own kids in hand-me-downs etc.

Upper classes still spend money, just more discreetly. IME there's some truth in the idea that rich people stay rich because they buy second hand cars and clothes, walk round with holey jumpers etc, but the key word there is stay. They had money to start with, plus their social position is assured and so there's no need to spend to prove worth.

Even if a poor woman saved all her coffee/nails money, it would simply give her a backup fund to fall back on if her fridge needs replacing, it won't make her rich.

Refuses to study:
Admittedly those who have seen first hand what a good education and professional job can (sometimes) net you, may have more respect for study, but I work with really bright, hardworking students, who overcome unbelievable home/social difficulties to win places at elite universities. IME they study harder than many of the MC kids I know.

Thinking Big:
Thinking big requires risk taking. It is MUCH easier to take risks (investments, starting a new business, unpaid internship that could lead to amazing job etc) if you know you have a safety net to fall back on. However, poor people still manage to think big despite the massive risk to them. Necessity is the mother of invention. Studies on this show that many of the world's most successful business owners are from poor, often immigrant backgrounds.

Criticise etc:
Not sure. Not in my experience, but there could be an element that you criticise when you haven't got the power to change things.

Buying time:
Rich people do buy time by buying in cleaners, builders, gardeners, rather than spending time doing themselves. But the opposite of this isn't wasting' time, it's just that if you're poorer you can't afford to buy time.

Income flows:
Many poorer people have multiple jobs = multiple income flows. The difference between poor and rich is in what those income flows bring in, and where they're from.
Poor = income comes from multiple jobs.
Rich = income comes from multiple sources (salary, investments, inheritance, property).

This list is totally lacking in real analysis and nuance.

Totally disagree with this. I grew up poor so used this as fuel to educate myself and ‘think big’. I’m very driven and I don’t think I’m a special case either, I think a lot of people who grow up poor/working class strive for a better life. It doesn’t necessarily mean going to university but it may mean opening a business for example. I know a couple of women I went to school with now own successful hairdressing businesses for example and credit to them really.

Even if a poor woman saved all her coffee/nails money, it would simply give her a backup fund to fall back on if her fridge needs replacing, it won't make her rich.

If it was invested into personal development and moving career or getting a better job, for example, it could absolutely provide in a future. Of course money just sitting somewhere on 0.02% interest (looking at you lloyds😑) will not do much except a small fall back.

Study: it doesn't have to be university. Many of my friends have solid incomes without uni. This is a massive problem on MN I spotted. Uni is not the alpha and omega of study.

Study: it doesn't have to be university. Many of my friends have solid incomes without uni. This is a massive problem on MN I spotted. Uni is not the alpha and omega of study.
Not at all. I saw a study where academics were years behind tradesmen in terms of finances, student loans, internships, tradesmen are making €300 start off and €1000's once qualified after 4 years.
My Dsis husband is a plumber they're very comfortable well he is the controller twat.
My Dbro is a builder a self made millionaire.
Even if a poor woman saved all her coffee/nails money, it would simply give her a backup fund to fall back on if her fridge needs replacing, it won't make her rich.
I am probably what you'd consider a poor woman I don't drink coffee and do my own shellac costing 30euro a year max.
Maybe I shouldn't but nail varnish or even a hair brush may as well look the part.

It won't be popular, but the biggest difference I notice is about expectations.

Born wealthy, know they belong in a wealthy group, stays wealthy. It's not a question of "if", it's a question of "how". Wouldn't even consider a low paid no future job.

While others settle too much, refuse to move.

Think about it: in a business, some employees are very much in the mindset of "them" vs "us". "management" vs "us". Others don't see that, and will climb the so-called ladder. You see it even on MN when some posters refer as "management" as if it's a different species from another planet. Not just someone doing a job they could just apply for and do themselves.

It doesn't mean some people born poor haven't done amazingly well.

While others settle too much, refuse to move. Oh yes that is some wc don't succeed they settle and refuse to move.

Wow, this is so awful and absolutely not!

It's a great way to blame people for their misfortune though.

Wealth creates wealth and the vast majority of truly wealthy people in the UK were born into wealth- they were sent to private school, helped financially as young people and then provided with large inheritances from their grandparents and/or parents. Their parents will have contacts to help them get jobs in the right places too!

Levels of social mobility have decreased over the past fifty years- meaning it's getting harder and harder to escape the traps of poverty even if you read, study, embrace change, invest 'money' (wait how do you do that without money?!!), problem-solve and 'think big'.

@EmeraldShamrock

While others settle too much, refuse to move. Oh yes that is some wc don't succeed they settle and refuse to move.

why do you think that's not true?

Some people will relocate, for their jobs, their career, their children school. Others will point blank refuse. Great, but when there are no job where you are, don't complain 🤷

Some people think they don't "belong" in some places and won't even try. You just need to read the thread about luxury hotels or restaurants and people being intimated or feeling out of place in them.

@Wheretoeattweenandteen,
I never believed how much genes impacted personality until m kids were born. Genes don't mean you are like your parents, genes are recessive and so can jump generation. Just like you can have two brown eyes parents giving birth to a blue eyed baby, two extroverts can give birth to an introvert, and although nurture can mould the person and make them lean less extremely one way, I do believe now that the state we resort to and feel confident with is inheritant. I agree that some kids will be born more naturally comfortable with the conceptof delaying gratification.

This is why poverty is so hard to get out of and why generations after generations struggle to move away from it. Both nature and nurture are involved. Breaking the cycle is almost impossible and the reason why it still exists.

It takes a lot to gain even half of the attributes listen in the 'rich' mindset when it's not in your genes, and you don't have role models to show you differently.

Some people think they don't "belong" in some places and won't even try. You just need to read the thread about luxury hotels or restaurants and people being intimated or feeling out of place in them.
Yes because a lot of them they're genuinely out of place it seems like an inferiority complex to you however years of conditioning and judgement from the professionals and those with more grind on a person.
Okay luckily some have the confidence to feel they deserve a place.
If they feel not good enough it is because they were made to feel less in many situations.
"Show me who you are and I'll treat you accordingly mentality" usually displayed by those who think they're better.

@isthisareverse

It won't be popular, but the biggest difference I notice is about expectations.

Born wealthy, know they belong in a wealthy group, stays wealthy. It's not a question of "if", it's a question of "how". Wouldn't even consider a low paid no future job.

While others settle too much, refuse to move.

Think about it: in a business, some employees are very much in the mindset of "them" vs "us". "management" vs "us". Others don't see that, and will climb the so-called ladder. You see it even on MN when some posters refer as "management" as if it's a different species from another planet. Not just someone doing a job they could just apply for and do themselves.

It doesn't mean some people born poor haven't done amazingly well.

But if you're not born into the 'born wealthy, stay wealthy' set then you're not likely to have the education, connections and advantages of that to enable you to be someone who can apply for that role and do it themselves. Refusing to entertain a low paid and dead end job isn't going to help any because the wealthy person can support themselves still while holding out for something better, the poor person can't. Not everyone can go into a management position, and not just because of lack of education or connections etc but because who would they manage if everyone does that? There wouldn't be enough management roles to do that. We need the lower rungs to support the upper tiers or the whole lot comes down. Yes, there's room to climb the ladder, the opportunity is open to anyone, but can't be open to everyone. So while yes, some people 'settle' we need those people to settle, and some absolutely don't, but there isn't room for them, or it takes that long to acquire the necessary that it can be like an endless fight with very little at the end of it anyway.

Yes, there's room to climb the ladder, the opportunity is open to anyone, but can't be open to everyone.

but there's a difference between the people who don't want to
(see the miffed posts about refusing to work 30 seconds after your finish time, or god forbid being sent an email at the weekend - that no one is expecting them to reply to out of business hours)

and the people who seem to think there's different species and "them" "management" "the professionals" (that's a new one) the rest of the world.

Someone even mentioned it on a thread about Madeleine McCann, commenting that her parents had special treatment and were "protected" because of their status. One is a GP, the other a professor - very commendable, but hardly the so called elite.

I have elements from both sides of that chart. That's incredibly insulting to both sides

Some people think they don't "belong" in some places and won't even try.

There is lots of this kind of self fulfilling prophecy in the uk, I found

@isthisareverse

Yes, there's room to climb the ladder, the opportunity is open to anyone, but can't be open to everyone.

but there's a difference between the people who don't want to
(see the miffed posts about refusing to work 30 seconds after your finish time, or god forbid being sent an email at the weekend - that no one is expecting them to reply to out of business hours)

and the people who seem to think there's different species and "them" "management" "the professionals" (that's a new one) the rest of the world.

Someone even mentioned it on a thread about Madeleine McCann, commenting that her parents had special treatment and were "protected" because of their status. One is a GP, the other a professor - very commendable, but hardly the so called elite.

Yes, some people don't want to, but that does not justify paying people wages that mean they're in poverty, and not wanting to is not the only reason by a long shot. The answer isn't moving everyone into management roles because who would they be managing? It just shifts the problem onto the next lot of people who are getting the jobs that were vacated and then the whole cycle starts again, just with different people. Everyone where I work gives 15 mins of their own time, every shift for handovers. All of us. There simply aren't enough senior roles to accommodate us all, even ones like me who want to.

The answer isn't moving everyone into management roles because who would they be managing?

well, no ,but not everyone define themselves based on their role either. It was just an example.

I swear some people think there's a difference between them and the "wealthy" or whatever they call them.

@isthisareverse

The answer isn't moving everyone into management roles because who would they be managing?

well, no ,but not everyone define themselves based on their role either. It was just an example.

I swear some people think there's a difference between them and the "wealthy" or whatever they call them.

There is a difference though, or all we'd all be the same. Everyone isn't starting from the same point with the same attributes or circumstances, and some people are on a faster path because they were able to go a different way. It also works the other way too, some 'wealthy' people seem to think the difference between 'them' and the 'poor' lack of aspirations and hard work, but it seems far more acceptable to think that than attributing some success to luck and having opportunities because of the advantages some people have. Double standards.

I swear some people think there's a difference between them and the "wealthy" or whatever they call them.
Maybe because there is. Britain is renowned for its class system sticking people in boxes and treating them accordingly.
You won't convince me otherwise I've read too many class threads on here.
It is like saying we're all human and equal, yes we should be but we're not.

I swear some people think there's a difference between them and the "wealthy" or whatever they call them

There is - a big pile of money and other assets for a start. Plus inherent advantages that come from having a wealthy background. Let’s not pretend we all start from the same place.

As human beings, yes we are all similar and would do well to remember that. But when it comes to opportunities, we are very much not.