Was there a big difference in academic standard between O-Levels and CSEs?

[Warburtons2]

I did GCSEs just for the record but I’m interested to know people’s reflections on this and how were people selected to do the exams?

At my grammar school, everybody did O levels. We were streamed in English, Maths and French, so everybody took 8 O levels as a minimum, while those in the top streams could do up to 11 by doing those three in a year in the fourth form, then French with Texts, Additional Maths and English Lit. in the fifth form.

Afaik, the only people who did CSEs were at the secondary moderns.

I did O levels in 1978. My comprehensive offered both CSE and O levels. The only subjects we were streamed for were English and Maths. As I recall several months before the exams we did mocks and then the teachers in each subject recommended either CSE or O level or double entry. You were discouraged from double entry in more than two subjects.

It was rare at our school to do all O level and no CSE, I think in my year there was only me and two others who took 10 straight O levels.

There was often more course work and projects for CSE. I think our Biology teacher secretly preferred people to do CSE because then she could display all the project work around the class room on open evening. There were always several people a year who would boil up a rabbit and then arrange the bones on card or even reconstruct the skeleton. One girl even did it with a cat and another one stuffed an owl. Even a Grade 1 CSE seems a poor reward for all that effort

We had sets for each subject - top set did o levels sometimes a year early
Set 2 did o level - sets 3 and 4 could do both
Sets 5 and 6 did CSE only
Set 7 and 8 did more vocational courses
It was a huge comprehensive school
I got 10 O levels 7 grade A, 2 grade B and 1 at grade C
This made me the highest scoring student in my year!
Probably less than 20% of us went on to do A levels and only a handful of those made it to university - I did but wished I’d gone into work earlier as I think I’d actually have gone further if I had!
I didn’t become a high earner until I was in my 50s

My school (private) refused to do CSEs. They had initially let bottom set Maths sit the Maths CSE but stopped that the year I sat O-levels.

Didn't it used to be that Grammar schools offered O-levels and the Secondary Modern schools didn't really do qualifications. I know my MIL and FIL who both failed the 11+ left school at 15 with no qualifications. CSEs were then introduced in 1965 to offer qualifications to those not sitting O-levels.

I seem to remember that the average grade when I sat exams (in the early 80s)was Grade 4 CSE (the lowest grade you could get was Grade 5 and you couldn't fail), so a number of children must still have left school with no qualifications.

It would be interesting to compare CSE and O Level past papers. Can anyone provide links particularly for CSE past papers as these seem impossible to find? Thanks.

I was in the middle band for maths, so did O level and CSE. I got a B in the O level, and U in the CSE!!! There were things on the CSE paper that we hadn’t been taught, such as binary numbers, plus I was angry that I had to do both exams so probably just missed out half the questions on purpose (I was an awkward sod at 16)

I have an AO level, grade A. (Happened to watch a TV programme the night before on one of the long questions on pollution and GB being the dirtyman of Europe killing Scandinavian forests with acid rain.

My (well known now) private school only did o levels. We all did English language a year early & some did french &/or maths early. I think the early maths people then did A/O maths or something. I have 9 o levels so must have done 8 in one go, with English early. 1979.

Only the very top group did o level at my school the rest of us did cse I have 16 of them nearly all grade 2 and all useless I spent an extra year at school and have o levels in bs and Cs. Also went onto a levels and a degree. The double tier exam system benefited very few children at my school as many children capable of o level left with useless CSEs

Pretty much similar to the decisions made whether to put somebody in for the Foundation or Higher paper in GCSE, according to my older half siblings; there were those, like my HSis who were always going to take the O Level, my second HB who was always going to be CSE and my other HBs were both borderline until the end of the 4th Year (now Year 10) test, where they were informed in September that they were being moved into O Level classes.

We did English language a year early - so then did English literature as an extra
You could also do maths a year early and then do further maths or statistics
We had English and maths plus 5 main options and a ‘leisure’ option eg needlework, art, home economics, RE,
Therefore the maximum O levels you could get was 8 unless you did Maths, English in year before which then meant you could do 10

I’d love to see some of the papers now to compare
I did exam invigilation for GCSE in 2010+ and was surprised how easy some papers were eg English and foreign languages
Some of the science papers were beyond me though and I was quite academic!

@Seashor

PaperMonster, you’re the only other person I’ve come across with an O A level!!

I've got an O A in biological studies. It was a 1 year course after taking biology o level early. It was all about ecosystems and we did loads of field work. Out of everything I learned at school, that course was my favourite and the one I've remembered most from, decades later.

I did CSE maths. I got a grade one. The paper was ridiculously easy. I finished in half an hour. I got a B at O level. I struggled with calculus.

@borntobequiet, thank you for linking to those 1967 O level Maths papers.

To me it’s very clear that they are much harder than any GCSE Maths papers I can remember teaching. What I didn’t notice when I took my O level Maths in 1969 is the male bias. In those papers one question refers to a “householder” with no sex specified and eight others use man, boy or male pronouns, for example “ a student......he.... “
There’s no mention anywhere of woman, girl or “she”.

Something else those papers show is the difference between the various specifications although all are O level. That makes it difficult to compare results from people who took both O level and CSE papers in the same subject. The syllabuses (syllabi) presumably weren’t identical and the teachers probably favoured teaching one or the other, depending on what they thought gave their students the best chance.

I have 8 O levels, DH has 10 O levels. He took his when he was 14 and his A levels when he was 16. He is the bigger nerd. As far as I’m aware only 20% of dc sat O levels.

They were all unseen exams and no coursework. My friend fainted in one due to stress on the day.

Didn't it used to be that Grammar schools offered O-levels and the Secondary Modern schools didn't really do qualifications

It was never as clear cut as that.

I went to a grammar, and we sat mainly O levels, but in maths and French (setted subjects) the top 2 sets were O level and the lower 2 were CSE. Everyone did O levels for English and for some options such as history and geography, but there were CSEs for some in sciences (everyone had to do at least one).

This was before coursework was part of the assessment - so the maximum number anyone took was 9, up from the 8 when my older siblings did theirs on the old 1-9 scale.

The local secondary mods varied - one had levels of O levels not too different to the grammars but pupils might sit fewer (6-8) the more typical ones had O levels for top sets in some subjects , one was nearly all CSE.

Before CSEs many secondary mod pupils left with no qualifications at all.

Some exam syllabuses were aligned, so it was possible to teach a similar course and decide only later on which exam. Others not so - the O level maths I did included calculus, and was streets away from the CSE.

I have O levels and CSEs. I also have a CEE. There was doubt I would pass O level Chemistry and Maths, so I was entered for CSE as well. Good thing too, as I was ungraded in both the O levels. As I got a CSE 2 in Maths, I did a CEE at sixth form, and got a grade that was an O level equivalent. That allowed me to do my degree and later my PGCE.

@Mathscourses, here are some more. I can’t find any CSE papers.

www.emaths.co.uk/index.php/teacher-resources/classroom-materials/very-old-exam-papers/category/o-level

However I had in the early 1970s a friend who had attended a secondary modern school and had a string of Grade 1 CSEs. She seemed to have a really good understanding of what she’d learnt, and I realised that much of my learning (selective, voluntary aided, Catholic school) had been by process and rote. It took me many years to deconstruct my learning and understand properly.

@Seashor

PaperMonster, you’re the only other person I’ve come across with an O A level!!

I've got a couple, including geology.

@RampantIvy

Given that there are foundation and higher levels for GCSE maths, English and science we don't seem to have moved on much from CSE and O levels.

The more things change, the more they stay the same! That's certainly the case with schools and school exams. Lots of re-arranging chairs on the Titanic but very little tangible "change" over the past 50 years.

I went to a selective boarding school. CSEs weren't an option available to us.
The school would stream us at the end of the 3rd year (current year 9) for maths and English language. If you got over 70% in those exams you were put I the top set and did the course in one year, taking the o level at the end of year 10. You then did AO maths and English literature as a one year course in year 11.
I got 71% percent in both subjects and went into the higher group. I struggled and got a C in both, then failed both AO maths and English literature the following year.
Our school also used a variety of curriculums and examination boards. Mostly the Cambridge board but I also did domestic science with SUJB (Southern universities joint board).

@Seashor

PaperMonster, you’re the only other person I’ve come across with an O A level!!

I thought they were called AO levels? I've got one in Human Biology.

Ah - here you go: Alternative O Levels, last examined in 1988.

@Seashor

I took O levels. Grades A-C were a pass. CSE’s we’re easier and in all honesty worthless unless you got a Grade 1 which was equivalent to a C grade O level. I also have two O/A levels which I think must be equivalent to a current A S .

I have a O grade in A level Physics. It meant you were still at O level standard, so not an A level pass, but not a "U" either.

Nearly all our class got O or U for A level Physics, the teachers was absolutely hopeless. He was some kind of upper class twit - bursting into operatic song or quoting Shakespeare randomly during lessons. He knew the subject, but was clearly bored by teaching it. Most of the lessons were "we're going to do radioactivity today - read chapter 12, make notes on it, do the end of chapter questions" that was the sum total of his "teaching" - just telling us to do it ourselves basically!