What's the alternative to Afghanistan situation?

[afghanistanwhatnow]

NC as don't want this linked to other posts - have a feeling I'll get flamed as I have little knowledge about politics so sorry in advance!

I've read quite a lot about this situation but what I'm struggling to understand is what else could have been done? Every news article and news piece talks about the tragedy (and I agree it's tragic) but not once have a I heard any viable solutions - only criticism of the government.

I'm genuinely interested to know what solutions Biden may have had to this situation and chose to ignore?

We cannot stay in Afghan forever - and then where do you draw the line? How many other countries should we help to this extent (as there are many other corrupt/terror threat countries too)

What's the alternative?

And then he did a runner

I mean, all governments could at least have got their citizens out before the US pulled its soldiers out. That would have prevented some of the carnage we have witnessed at least…

I get your point though, we can’t stay in Afghanistan forever and I understand why Biden thought after 20 years of training the Afghan army they should be able to fight back. The Taliban isn’t even a third of the size of the Afghan army. Trouble is, the army there weren’t as passionate about the cause as the Taliban clearly are.

I don't know the answer - though elsewhere on the internet it's fascinating to see how many armchair military experts we are blessed with - but it is a falsehood to state 'we can't stay forever'.

The US has done exactly this, where required to maintain the peaceful (ish) status quo. It has a presence in South Korea to maintain the DMZ, Germany, Japan etc. All in support of a peace established after decades old wars.

Why the rush to pull out what had fallen to a modest deployment in Afghanistan? Certainly seems to me that this was a move calculated to play well domestically while totally screwing the Afghan people and international relations.

I don’t know what the alternative is but I just feel so sad for the ordinary women who’ve had 20 years of relative freedom who will now have to live in a burkha, no education, no job, no leaving the house without a male guardian.
You’ll never convince me that people would choose to live this way rather than in a democracy if they had completely free choice and they knew what real freedom was.

The alternative is unpalatable - We stayed indefinitely along with other allies to ensure the safety of the Afgahstan State and the safety of the west.

The Taliban are not going to just sit back and relax now they are in power - that's not what their ideology is about. With China and Russia supporting them, we are most likely to be in a lot of trouble.

A plane evacuating people left half full this morning from Kabul as the Taliban are not letting people in to the airport. They are already conducting house to house searches for people who worked for the UK and US - to kill them.

I don't think there is a good solution which is realistically achievable but the decision to abruptly withdraw US troops has escalated a less than ideal situation to a catastrophe; the repercussions for the world and particularly western powers will play out over decades.

Trumps decision to release 5000 Taliban prisoners was a mistake but there were conditions attached to continued withdrawal of US troops. Biden appears to have ditched all conditions and abruptly withdrawn troops and support for the Afghan army against the advice of all military advisors and without informing allied governments of his intention. The NSA is now issuing demands to the Taliban with zero leverage, all this whilst 10 -15 k Americans and Afghan allies are trapped in Kabul. They have been instructed to get to the airport for evacuation but have been told that the US military cannot guarantee their safety getting there, the Taliban control the roads with access to the airport.

The Afghan army had many reasons to be demoralized but the decision to remove US support for their Air Force both in terms of hardware and the support to maintain their own planes has left them with very little to mount a credible defence against the Taliban. Many of the military bases in Afghanistan can only be resupplied by air and the Afghan military no longer has the means to do the job. The Taliban are now in possession of billions of dollars worth of American military hardware and have also released ISIS and Al Qaeda prisoners detained in Afghanistan.

China and Russia are playing the long game for access to mineral rights but it will be in their economic interests to maintain a sort of peace in the region, neither has a history of great concern for human rights so the plight of ordinary Afghans will be of no interest to them. China and Russia's accessories to lithium could have consequences for the west as we try to reduce reliance on fossil fuels.

China is making some very worrying noises about US military presence in Taiwan, no doubt emboldened by Bidens decision to abandon Afghanistan to the Taliban.

I have no answers, just lots of worry and also anger about the recklessness of the Biden administration, the fallout will be felt around the world and the people of Afghanistan will be terrorised by their own "government".To describe it as a shit show would be a gross understament.

The alternative is staying for much longer - although withdrawal of troops was part of handing back so that issue aside: .

Do people think that if it’s not a partisan issue and US public supports withdrawal that their support or not should be considered?

@TwitterTwatterofTinyMinds

I don't know the answer - though elsewhere on the internet it's fascinating to see how many armchair military experts we are blessed with - but it is a falsehood to state 'we can't stay forever'.

The US has done exactly this, where required to maintain the peaceful (ish) status quo. It has a presence in South Korea to maintain the DMZ, Germany, Japan etc. All in support of a peace established after decades old wars.

Why the rush to pull out what had fallen to a modest deployment in Afghanistan? Certainly seems to me that this was a move calculated to play well domestically while totally screwing the Afghan people and international relations.

100% this.

"We can't stay there forever" is a falsehood, it's an active choice.

The shame the UK carries is that no attempt at all was made to stay with other allies making up the US shortfall. It demonstrates NATO as a combined force of nations is a nonsense.

Bastards, all of them.

@Kendodd

I don't know. As for 'poking the hornets nest' frankly I don't know what should have been done there either. We have to remember the Taliban sheltered and enabled terrorist groups when last in power.

Is this correct though? I thought that they offered to turn Bin Laden over to the US following 9/11, but George Bush refused preferring to invade instead. I'm only just beginning to educate myself on the whole situation though so I'm happy to be corrected.

Ohfook I think it’s the other way round

US offered to keep Taliban in power if they handed AQ etc over but they said no.

Personally I think withdrawing was wrong. It takes generations to change things and I think we had a responsibility to stay.

But, as that was never an option, they should have made sure that everyone who needed to get out including those Afghans that had helped us were got out in plenty of time before withdrawal. They should have at least secured Kabul and it’s airport.
There’s no safe passage to the airport.

It’s a complete fuck up and the fault for that lies with Biden and I hate to say that.

I've been following this and I think America should never have stayed so long if they weren't prepared to stay for longer i.e. 30, 50, 60 years. They should have considered the consequences on all people. This is the reality of ideological wars. And you have to ask if its worth it or if there is another way.

I think UK now have to make good what we can and resettle as many people as possible, figure out our foreign policies and keep pressure on in respect of womens rights, do as much as we can to prevent oppression and intimidation.

What concerns me day by day is the safety and displacement of people.

And dear god we need decent leadership in the UK - politicians who are actually on top of their brief, is it too much to ask.

The documentary 'this is what winning looks like' is very illuminating.

@TwitterTwatterofTinyMinds

” it is a falsehood to state 'we can't stay forever'.

The US has done exactly this, where required to maintain the peaceful (ish) status quo. It has a presence in South Korea to maintain the DMZ, Germany, Japan etc. All in support of a peace established after decades old wars.”

When it comes to those countries vs. Afghanistan that’s something of an apples and oranges comparison though, or at the very least you are being a bit selective about your choice of countries.

The US has been able to stay in the likes of SK, Germany and Japan because (whilst at times their presence has and sometimes continues to be unpopular ) in none of those countries has it been faced with an active insurgency which has had the support of a sizable percentage of the local population.

If you actually want to compare Oranges with Oranges then maybe it’s worth considering whether the French, to some extent the Brits and certainly the US were able to “stay forever” in Indochina/Vietnam.

[quote notimagain]@TwitterTwatterofTinyMinds

” it is a falsehood to state 'we can't stay forever'.

The US has done exactly this, where required to maintain the peaceful (ish) status quo. It has a presence in South Korea to maintain the DMZ, Germany, Japan etc. All in support of a peace established after decades old wars.”

When it comes to those countries vs. Afghanistan that’s something of an apples and oranges comparison though, or at the very least you are being a bit selective about your choice of countries.

The US has been able to stay in the likes of SK, Germany and Japan because (whilst at times their presence has and sometimes continues to be unpopular ) in none of those countries has it been faced with an active insurgency which has had the support of a sizable percentage of the local population.

If you actually want to compare Oranges with Oranges then maybe it’s worth considering whether the French, to some extent the Brits and certainly the US were able to “stay forever” in Indochina/Vietnam.[/quote]
This is a good post which details more on why you can’t use this as comparison

Other factors are what are the casualties and is US support from voting public there

@ss1234 Spot on.

I agree that staying indefinitely was probably a preferable solution. If it kept the peace there it is surely worth it and perfectly possible to stay?

In hindsight, never have gone in.

Now? Dialogue with the Taliban needs to remain open.

As unsavoury as that may be, they're in power and that's that. Keep your friends close and enemies closer that sort of thing.

Britain and America should never have invaded Afghanistan or Iraq in the first place. We delude ourselves utterly if we think it was about human rights. It was primarily about oil and money I think.
How Tony Blair and George W Bush are not in prison for waging illegal war is beyond me.
As for what we do now? I don't know how, but somehow we have to get as many planes in, and as many people out, as possible asap. Britain has an absolute moral duty to accept, and warmly welcome, as many Afghan refugees as possible. The very least we can do. Anyone with a spare room should consider hosting refugees.
As PPs have said, all the evacuations should have taken place before the withdrawal. Afghan translators and so on, who helped the allies are possibly going to pay with their lives. It's unbearable to think about. No country will ever trust, or help, western invaders again, and I don't remotely blame them. We should all hang our heads in shame

The US should be working hard to make dialogue with us first it's bloody partners. I've just found out it took 36 hours for Boris to get hold of Biden as this unfolded.

Wandering, Biden, although in struggle to believe a single word he says, claimed that they were offered to leave and the president of a said no, it will cause a crisis of confidence..
I'm not sure that denying people the chance on the whim of a knowingly corrupt person is a good enough excuse really.

Biden was told in April they need to prepare lists of those who helped the US.
Many passports of afghan helpers were burned at the embassy whilst they evacuated...

They don't know who worked for them...

Biden was told in April to compile a list...

Wandering, can we trust America again, or at least with this president??

@Wheretoeattweenandteen I'm not sure I ever trusted America! I don't mean ordinary American citizens of course. But all the respective governments over the years. Capitalist-driven imperialists. Though the British governments have been very much complicit, so, not much better sadly...

Yes but we had to have a level of trust between our government and their government...

That's gone.

I've also seen reputable news's agency saying that isis threat at airport.

@Wheretoeattweenandteen yes, I see what you mean.
Gosh, that's scary about Isis. I thought they'd largely disappeared? Certainly in Iraq. I didn't realise they were a significant threat in Afghanistan. How utterly tragic all this is. I feel so sorry and sad for women who previously suffered horrendously under either the Taliban or isis. Many of whom already have asylum in the west. Unfolding events currently, must be so triggering for them .
I feel so helpless (I guess we all do) I wish there was more I could do, on a personal level, to help those desperate Afghan people...