to ask should people still be bowing/curtseying to royalty

[bringincrazyback]

...in this day and age?

And if so, why?

(Usual disclaimers apply: long-standing member, not a journo, no Daily Fail affiliations. Question inspired by something that's come up in a book I'm reading; I'm curious to know what others think. Personally I think it's an obsequious practice that should have died out decades ago.)

I think anyone who uses subservience to describe showing a simple act of respect to The Queen is suffering with a bit of a chip

No - just a Republican through and through.

@Suzy39 Exactly. I'm sure it will phase out naturally with the changing generations.

I think we should abolish the whole thing. Billboards around the country now to debate having a monarchy #endthemonarchy

I am a staunch republican and a few years ago, was invited to an invite attended by Princess Anne.

I am of the opinion that I do not crouch before any other human being, so yeah, whatever.

We lined up, Anne came along, shook hands, had a nice chat, It was all fine (she's very nice and considerably smaller than you think, btw).

I was roughly in the middle of the line and everybody had done the same up until then, until one woman, who was at the end of the line (and so had watched what everybody else had done), suddenly sank into this bizarre full Regency-style curtsey.

I'm not sure who looked more horrified - Anne or the rest of the line-up (I've since read that she hates all the formal protocol stuff, so probably her, in fairness. And, for what it's worth, even as a republican, I quite like Anne. She can stay).

@StoneofDestiny You don't say.

The point being, I don't believe anyone who curtseys to The Queen does it out of a sense of subservience.
Deference, respect, and possibly a dollop of affection, yes.

I think that bowing should be the appropriate thing, male or female. Those who don't wish to meet royalty should be able to opt out.

@Suzy39

I met Prince William and Kate - just a handshake (and I sat down before them...). They didn't care!

There was a funny clip where Kate was waiting to congratulate the 2019 women's wimbledon champion and she goes to shake her hand and the player who was I think Romanian and a huge fan of the Royal family does this really sudden and sweet curtsey, it seems to take Kate a little by surprise and she reacts nicely but you can see she wasn't expecting it as it was the tennis player's big moment - in the background Pippa is killing herself laughing - I bet the Middleton siblings tease her about the curtseying thing all the time in private.

I think it should be up to the individual concerned.

Incidentally, having met the parents of some of dd's international friends at her graduation, the Japanese bow at every opportunity and it is seen as essential good manners.

the Japanese bow at every opportunity and it is seen as essential good manners

But it's a mutual act, not one sided in Japan. They bow to each other.

In the UK, monarchy don't bow or curtesy to ''subjects'. It's the inequality of the gesture that makes it one of 'subservience' rather than just 'respect'. Handshakes by their nature are 'equal' as it takes two to make a handshake.

Not a chance! I also think it is time inherited peerage was abolished too.....what a lot of laughable nonsense.

@ShippingNews

No. And I doubt that the actual Royals could care less. The courtiers seem more intent on keeping up these old traditions.

I know we love to think "they are just like us" but sadly it is not true. I have met one or two of them, and had a little to do with them socially many years ago. We were instructed on how to address them, when to bow/curtsey, had to arrive before them, they had to be seated first, served first etc. They really like it. They really believe they are a cut above. They do not believe that it is an accident of birth etc. I did not last long in that set......

I think some of the so called royals should be bowing/curtseying to me. I certainly feel superior to some of them.

I visited some friends a few years ago in a part of the world where it’s still quite common for younger people do a little curtsey/salute to older ones when they first see them and house help do it to their employers.

The young woman who was given the job of looking after me would curtsey whenever she saw me. And being the wettest sort of liberal, still-18-in-my-head and hugely embarrassed by the whole thing, I kept automatically curtseying back at her. God knows what she thought. .

Having said that, I agree that curtsying and bowing across the board would be nicer than bumping elbows and more hygienic than shaking hands. Can we bring back crinolines to go with it?

@HarriedHarriet

Absolutely true. My DH had a lot to do with one of them over a very long time and it was absolutely clear that royal expected to be treated with deference.

@Marzipanfruit

Not a chance! I also think it is time inherited peerage was abolished too.....what a lot of laughable nonsense.

I think they are being phased out slowly there are only 92 hereditary peers out of 800 now in the House of Lords. Tony Blair wanted to get rid of all of them but was forced to compromise. The next reform of the Lords will probably be the end of them.

Hell, no.

I remember as a student working at a big event where Prince Andrew was going to make a speech. We were told by his equerry to avoid eye contact with him at all times and only speak when he indicated it was appropriate for us to do so. I wish I'd had the guts to have done something rebellious but I just sat there, all politely.

@mintylovely

I didn't when I met Prince Charles, shook hands and spoke about the topic I was presenting. Same with the other people he met, handshake and a chat.

Same when he toured our hospital. If I’d been asked to curtsy I’d have refused to meet him. I would never bow or curtsy to any of them. The Queen’s no better than me.

at secondary school, we had to curtsey to the headmistress every morning. as we marched out of assembly. she would bow, and we forming a broad arc in front of her, would curtsey.
the first morning as newbies, 11 year olds, she got quite annoyed when we didnt know what to do after standing in front of her.
no one told us. it was that sort of place.
the only time i have used this vast experience since was when curtseying to princess anne.
i was one of the few to do it correctly. well after 5 years, it improves...

Prince Andrew was going to make a speech. We were told by his equerry to avoid eye contact with him at all times and only speak when he indicated it was appropriate for us to do so

Same 'instruction* given out about the others - don't speak until they speak to you, don't extend your hand until they do ......blah blah.
Meanwhile Prince Philip got to insult everyone he met after they showed him 'deference/respect'.

[quote StoneofDestiny]**@HarriedHarriet

Absolutely true. My DH had a lot to do with one of them over a very long time and it was absolutely clear that royal expected to be treated with deference.[/quote]
Yup!
They have good PR though who work these stories in about how "down to earth " they are etc.
I also am not convinced on the "respect" point. This is a family of enormous personal wealth, power and influence.
All of it inherited, none of it accountable. I do not automatically respect that.
If they do some good with it then maybe.
But in my lifetime I just see them living a pretty cushy life, being quite dysfunctional as a family, and not really doing a whole lot of good.
Iit would be the same as respecting the progeny of the wealthy - why?

I hope that then extends to all hereditary titles, not just those sitting in the Lords. I don't understand how anyone can accept the concept of the aristocracy - or why some people bow and scrape to them. I am polite to everyone, but no better or worse than anyone either.

Sorry, my last post was meant to quote cabin girl.

I don’t think I’ve ever heard a nice story about Prince Andrew. With most people in the public eye - you hear at least one nice story about meeting them that counters all the others about bad or rude behaviour and makes it possible that they have good and bad days like most people - but if he’s ever been friendly and kind to a member of the public, I’ve never heard it.

What are they going to do when he dies and it’s compulsory to have wall to wall delightful reminiscing for 24 hours?

@HarriedHarriet

Totally agree, people might think they are showing respect, but it's expected and received as deference. Talk to this particular royal as an equal and you were met with astonishment and a mini tantrum, - simply cannot have an opinion challenged. The way the royal got out of discussions/conversation/challenge was through a whole series of gestures and signals that signified the talking was at an end - luckiest appeared on cue to wink said royal away. This was common.

There wasnt exactly loads of praise when Princess Margaret died. One or two of her friends spoke. But most people knew she was a spoilt selfish obnoxious diva of the first order.