Evacuation form Afghanistan- women?

[Aprilinspringtimeshower]

So saw this article and the accompanying photo www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/17/afghanistan-striking-image-appears-to-show-640-people-fleeing-kabul-in-packed-us-military-plane?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

This is what concerns me- where are the women? The overwhelming majority of people on that plane are men, adult males. There are a few women and some children.
Yet it is the women who are in greatest danger. Young girls, older women. Single women who won’t be able to support themselves once stopped from going outside unaccompanied, professional women who will be banned from working .

Everyone said that the war was about women’s right and way of life. And that what is happening now is a danger to the rights and well-being of women.

Surely it is women who are the ones that need to get out of the country safely and be offered asylum- so where are they? Why wasn’t that plane full of mostly women or even equal amounts of women and the men that accompany them.

I don’t hear the government saying anything to target protection and refuge for women specifically. And to young girls and women who are in real danger

AIBU that it is always the men that get the preference, and that really no one cares enough to actually provide proper protection to the women and girls ..it’s just all sound bites and noble words

@kurtney

Staying with your wife and children because you can't all get out together isn't going to help them. Wouldn't you encourage your dad / brother / son / husband to get the hell out and away from you in this awful situation? For your kids' sake, too?

I absolutely would but there's no way on earth my dad/husband/brother would have left us behind at the mercy of a brutal woman hating regime. The idea that these men have left their female relatives behind and are going to 'send for them later' is laughable and anyone who thinks they are is incredibly naive.

And I don't care how much that 'makes your skin crawl' 🙄

But their families are in more danger if they are with them! Who knows what arrangements they've made - extended family, different routes. But the choices they are facing are not the choices you are describing.

I DO JUDGE, I JUDGE. WE ALL DO

historically there have been multiple situations where people have had to be evacuated. And I know more about this situation than many. It is noticeable, the lack of women. It is a cultural issue and it is fucked up beyond reasoning by western standards and I DO JUDGE.

Judging those who do judge is actually you in your western ivory castle refusing to see that this is not so bloody simple and there is a fuck tonne of sexism involved.

OP I agree with everything you have written here, also BrilloPad. To be a woman a or girl in Afghanistan right now or into the future is a terrible fate. What can we do to help them? Women everywhere should be horrified at what is happening to other women and children there, and wanting to do something on their behalf, but what? I saw on TV that UNICEF is staying on and the Taliban had agreed to let them continue working. .

@Belleager

The Uk have said they are planning on evacuating women and children so they will make sure its women and children.

The UK can do that if it sticks with its current policy of processing slowly and grudgingly from refugee camps. Whether they'll manage it in Kabul on the ground remains to be seen. They're not exactly covering themselves with glory so far.

The mess they've made - and the US and other countries - affects men too. Rhetoric which only allows women and children to be vulnerable refugees plays well politically and stokes anti-refugee feeling. Men can be vulnerable and betrayed by international forces too (and of course most men, women and children come in family groups)

And I don't remember women's rights being the driver - wasn't it War on Terror and Winning Hearts and Minds to the Western Way?

I took that to mean that they will be evacuating families - but that also refers to people whom they’ve worked with. Not that they’re going to take all women/kids that turn up and ignore the men.

Also women first is only sensible if they’re the primary carer of children. I don’t see why a childless adult of any gender had priority over the other. At the end of the day only the lucky ones escapee anyway.

@MotionActivatedDog

Article in the guardian earlier with a quote from a woman who was being evacuated from her university on Sunday, no men would help them leave. They wouldn’t take them in their cars as didn’t want to be responsible for a woman. The men outside watching the women leave were taunting them with comments telling them to go and buy a burqa and saying “I will marry 4 of you in a day”.

This is why women and children aren’t being seen on the photos.

And how sure are you that all of those weren’t men from the Taliban - I don’t think random men would’ve have been standing around .

I did a breakdown of this kind of situation with historical data, once. Circumstances differ each time, but:

If we were talking about an orderly evacuation where there's a clear route to safety, and you get to pack your wife and child on the bus while you fight on, wait for the next - we'd have one situation. That's not this. There are no lifeboats.

This is a dangerous escape route - you might as well carry a banner saying American collaborator as head for that airport. It's an uncertain one - they are not evacuating just anyone. They are processing visas, i.e. refusing people. In circumstances I've studied, families that tried to reunite quickly seemed more likely to become casualties. Separate, staggered escapes worked better.

And yes, people can send for families. Get out, persuade host country you can support them, and allowing them to leave is on the table for diplomatic negotiations.

If we want to help, we should put pressure on the government to keep processing, keep accepting, keep negotiating. Not demand that men sit down and wait to die for the mess we have helped create.

And how sure are you that all of those weren’t men from the Taliban - I don’t think random men would’ve have been standing around

I’ve no reason to believe they weren't taliban- I don’t think I said I did?

That doesn’t change the fact that this will be the reason those women didn’t get to the airport, does it?

@HyacynthBucket

OP I agree with everything you have written here, also BrilloPad. To be a woman a or girl in Afghanistan right now or into the future is a terrible fate. What can we do to help them? Women everywhere should be horrified at what is happening to other women and children there, and wanting to do something on their behalf, but what? I saw on TV that UNICEF is staying on and the Taliban had agreed to let them continue working. .

That's a bright spot in all this and good to know

I think this tells you everything you need to know about the behaviour of men in those countries. The army just surrendered without firing a single shot and didn’t even try to defend their women and children from the Taliban. And now the men are taking up seats on refugee flights that could have been filled by women and children. The news reported that women were standing back from the crowds pushing to get on planes because of the risk of sexual assault. Basically the women are second class citizens and the men don’t respect them.

Yabu

This photo is slightly cropped from other versions I have seen on other news reports. There are more women and children at the front
I fear you have fell victim to what the Daily Fail wants you to deduce.

And now the men are taking up seats on refugee flights that could have been filled by women and children

Because those men would be executed if they didn’t get out. Filling seats with women and children would be a death sentence for the men. This is like a bloody parallel universe.

Woman will be raped. Men will be shot. If I was faced between the 2 options - I’d get my sons out first.

@Paulinna

I think this tells you everything you need to know about the behaviour of men in those countries. The army just surrendered without firing a single shot and didn’t even try to defend their women and children from the Taliban. And now the men are taking up seats on refugee flights that could have been filled by women and children. The news reported that women were standing back from the crowds pushing to get on planes because of the risk of sexual assault. Basically the women are second class citizens and the men don’t respect them.

You are generalising about all Afghani men from one picture? There are women on board that plane. You say the army surrendered without a shot? Isn't that good, no bloodshed especially when it was inevitable that the Taliban would win. The lesson to learn is not how awful Afghani men are, but that Imperialist wars don't ever help a country.

They wouldn’t take them in their cars as didn’t want to be responsible for a woman. The men outside watching the women leave were taunting them with comments telling them to go and buy a burqa and saying “I will marry 4 of you in a day”
And do people think the men we import here will suddenly adopt Western values of equality and tolerance? Most likely they’re going to treat us like that on our own streets.

@MotionActivatedDog

And how sure are you that all of those weren’t men from the Taliban - I don’t think random men would’ve have been standing around

I’ve no reason to believe they weren't taliban- I don’t think I said I did?

That doesn’t change the fact that this will be the reason those women didn’t get to the airport, does it?

No - neither would anyone else who couldn’t leave independently (man or woman), or who was deemed unacceptable by the Taliban. Your post implies that ordinary Afghans hate women so much that they stood around not helping. Of COURSE the people they were running from wouldn’t have helped of them escape! The plane was for US interpreters most of whom are men. At the airport there were more women and children but the photos taken of people clinging to the plane and surrounding were more men because by that time they had known they couldn’t get on so the most despesfate and daring to jump on where the men… sadly… it’s futile…

And do people think the men we import here will suddenly adopt Western values of equality and tolerance? Most likely they’re going to treat us like that on our own streets.

Sorry?

Sorry the Guardian!

But here is another version of the photo with women and babies and small girls and boys clearly visible

No - neither would anyone else who couldn’t leave independently (man or woman), or who was deemed unacceptable by the Taliban.
Your post implies that ordinary Afghans hate women so much that they stood around not helping.
Of COURSE the people they were running from wouldn’t have helped of them escape!

Tell you what, have a read for yourself and you can decide who was standing outside taunting them.

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/15/an-afghan-woman-in-kabul-now-i-have-to-burn-everything-i-achieved?fbclid=IwAR05y_UUuHkmRLxDsIX_yOs97uOSjsC2grF60pMcAcs8znBuKHHyjyiMj90

@Paulinna

I think this tells you everything you need to know about the behaviour of men in those countries. The army just surrendered without firing a single shot and didn’t even try to defend their women and children from the Taliban. And now the men are taking up seats on refugee flights that could have been filled by women and children. The news reported that women were standing back from the crowds pushing to get on planes because of the risk of sexual assault. Basically the women are second class citizens and the men don’t respect them.

Nobody is claiming that Afghanistan is a beacon of progress in women's rights. If getting on planes is survival of the fittest I've no doubt men, and their dependents, are getting on first. If you invade a country well known to have a culture of male dominance, you need to be making plans to deal with that when you propose to protect those who've worked for you.

This is a race to the bottom. We are working to save a small number of the people ultimately at risk form the Taliban because we have withdrawn and left them the territory. A patriarchal society will have arrant sexism, but will also have men who see protecting (in some ways oppressing) women, as part of their role. There will be men who despise women, and there will be men who are desperate to survive and to protect their women.

The new information here is not (shock!) men are sexist. It is, US and allies are struggling to get everyone they've pledged to support out. And even if they do, we have a looming human rights crisis, mostly among people with no hope of getting on a US plane in any circumstances.

Maybe (some) Afghan men don't care about women. Do we care about Afghans?

Filling seats with women and children would be a death sentence for the men
Let your women and children die vs die yourselves. Decent men would choose the latter.

You say the army surrendered without a shot? Isn't that good, no bloodshed especially when it was inevitable that the Taliban would win
The army outnumbered the Taliban 4 to 1. They could have defeated them but chose not to. So no, it’s not good that they surrendered and let the Taliban take over their country.

@ByThePool2021

Woman will be raped. Men will be shot. If I was faced between the 2 options - I’d get my sons out first.

I don’t think this is an argument I can endorse. Being raped and kept as a sex slave and having zero access to medical care is a fate worse than death. Are you watching the Handmaid’s Tale?

There are two schemes, the existing scheme is for the people who worked with the military, US and UK, and that is what these men probabl are. The new scheme they are working on is for women and girls at risk but that hasn't got going yet.

Women, children and domestic animals don't matter and are left behind it seems. It's a real damning indictment to see that that's how some countries regard half their population. Absolutely sickening.