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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think the Afghan army did not consider their government worth laying down their lives for....

46 replies

54321nought · 16/08/2021 17:28

They were trained and equipped ( in theory) and expected to stand and fight, and they didn't.

AIBU to think they just had nothing to stand and fight for?

If my sons were in this position, expected to put their lives on the line, to fight for a government, I would expect that government to be accountable and democratic.

If I did not consider it to be so, I would be encouraging my sons to run and hide.

how can we leave other people's sons in this position? Expect them to be prepared to fight to the death to defend a corrupt and non democratic government.

Of course many of them chose not to.

OP posts:
Justcallmebebes · 16/08/2021 17:31

Many members of the army haven't been paid in several months. Plus the Taliban offer money for arms plus the tribal allegiances make it far more nuanced than simply giving their lives for their country

Original poster
54321nought · 17/08/2021 06:41

Those people saying IABU, do you think the army should have risked their lives to fight?

Do you have sons? Sad

OP posts:
FallingStar21 · 17/08/2021 06:47

Well, the government clearly didnt consider its people worth fighting for.. So-called president immediately upping and leaving in such a selfish, undignified fashion.

Hekatestorch · 17/08/2021 06:49

I don't think this is a simple as yanbu / yabu.

Wether you 'lay down your arms' doesn't really come down to wether you feel your government is worth fighting for.

These people are not just soldiers. Their actions, especially, on home soil impact their family, friends, communities towns.

As above, if they aren't getting paid and they believe the talisman we will anyway but they can protect their loved ones by not fighting, you can see why they would.

I have no idea what I would be telling my son. Because, thankfully, I haven't been in this position. I don't live in that culture. Parents with both sons in the army and daughters at home feel conflicted. People who know what it's like under the taliban also feel conflicted.

I spent my early childhood in Derry, NI in the early 80s. That's my nearest experience. But its not enough for me to know how parents in Afghanistan feel.

SnakesAndRubies · 17/08/2021 06:53

I haven't got a bloody clue what it's like to be the Afghan army or to live in Afghanistan. Who am I to know how hard they could or could not have fought? The term 'lay down their lives' is always easier when talking about someone else's life.

Xdecd · 17/08/2021 06:53

YABU because you are wrong. The army was trained by US forces, but when they withdrew they took the vast majority of their equipment with them. In particular there had been an emphasis on training in airstrikes and airborne warfare (because that is most of what the US Army now does), but virtually no planes or missiles were left behind.

The Afghan army was actually poorly equipped (both in terms of training and actual equipment) for the way the Taliban fight on the ground. A bit like the US in the Vietnam war.

Iggly · 17/08/2021 06:57

Do you honestly think you can presume to judge what it might or might not be like for those in Afghanistan? I’m guessing you have not a clue.

So YABU. I have no idea. I’m sure you don’t either.

Original poster
54321nought · 17/08/2021 07:00

@Iggly

Do you honestly think you can presume to judge what it might or might not be like for those in Afghanistan? I’m guessing you have not a clue.

So YABU. I have no idea. I’m sure you don’t either.

well, I care for Afghan refugees, so I know a fair amount from their point of view
OP posts:
meditrina · 17/08/2021 07:01

I don't really think this is a terribly fair AIBU question, because the situation on the ground is so much more complex, and ignores so much Afghan history, and the entire (and important) tribal aspect

AbsolutelyPatsy · 17/08/2021 07:03

people want to be on the winning side, the Taliban are all powerful

Iggly · 17/08/2021 07:04

Which is great.

However, I remember when Trump decided to set a deadline for withdrawal and took a load of troops out - there was shock at the time. Cleary the country was not ready from news reports. Furthermore, the Taliban has financial backing from Pakistan and they are also Afghan. So I doubt it’s as simple as the Afghan army v the Taliban.

So that’s what I mean by I doubt it’s that straight forward.

Afghanistan is yet another mess created by the likes of our countries meddling for their own gain.

Hekatestorch · 17/08/2021 07:07

well, I care for Afghan refugees, so I know a fair amount from their point of view

But you, clearly, don't. You are on a position where many afghan refugees, from all walks of life, from Ex military to younh children from isolated villages and everything in between speak to you in great detail about whats going on in technical detail about what equipment and training they had and their deepest, inner most thoughts and feelings?

There's no 'afghan refugees feel/think xyz' they are a group with one joint brain. They are individuals and will all have an individual view depending on their own experiences, position and how the outcome will impact them.

Expecttheexpected · 17/08/2021 07:26

I voted YABU on the basis that you have massively oversimplified the issue, presumably without any firsthand knowledge of what's happening and are therefore completely unqualified to comment in this way.

Turquoisesol · 17/08/2021 07:31

Taliban have financial backing from Pakistan?

SofiaMichelle · 17/08/2021 07:34

@Expecttheexpected

I voted YABU on the basis that you have massively oversimplified the issue, presumably without any firsthand knowledge of what's happening and are therefore completely unqualified to comment in this way.
This sums it up.
PumpkinPie2016 · 17/08/2021 07:38

It is a hugely complicated issue. It's not as simple as the Afghan army don't care enough about their government.

My brother is in the military and spent time out there around 2000. I can't and won't go into detail on a public forum but he was talking to me about it then other day and it really is massively complex.

I feel so sorry for the Afghan people and I hope that the British forces over there now trying to get people out can do that for as many as possible.

Zilla1 · 17/08/2021 07:50

I think there are many armies who fight hard for governments that don't meet your 'Expect them to be prepared to fight to the death to defend a corrupt and non democratic government?' test, indeed in Afghanistan, the Taliban don't appear to nor seem to want to meet the second half of your test.

Original poster
54321nought · 17/08/2021 07:57

@Zilla1

I think there are many armies who fight hard for governments that don't meet your 'Expect them to be prepared to fight to the death to defend a corrupt and non democratic government?' test, indeed in Afghanistan, the Taliban don't appear to nor seem to want to meet the second half of your test.
what are you talking about? I can't make head not tail of this post
OP posts:
Iggly · 17/08/2021 07:59

@Turquoisesol

Taliban have financial backing from Pakistan?
My understanding is that they have support coming from Pakistan - they’ve been able to shelter there, have financial interests there etc. Where have the Taliban been for the last twenty years and how did they all of a sudden take over Afghanistan after 20 years?
NeverDropYourMoonCup · 17/08/2021 08:05

@AbsolutelyPatsy

people want to be on the winning side, the Taliban are all powerful
Because they don't want to die, mostly.
Zilla1 · 17/08/2021 08:08

I could have misread your OP but at first glance, it seemed to be predicated on an assumption that governments could only expect armies to fight for them if those governments were accountable and democratic, that was the test mummies of soldiers would apply before encouraging their sons to fight and that was the reason the Afghan army did not fight. As democratic, accountable governments don't tend to go to war against each other, looks like war should be a thing of the past.

Twinkie01 · 17/08/2021 08:15

Can you begin to even think about the fear of being up against the Taliban with no backing from international armed forces? Fuck that I'd be switching sides to keep myself and my family safe from torture and death.

Gremlinsateit · 17/08/2021 08:30

Yeah, since about 70K Aghan soldiers have died in the last 20 years and they were left with inadequate funds and weapons, I think your statement has inaccurate foundations. And agree with PPs - the situation is far more complicated than your argument suggests.

ChainJane · 17/08/2021 08:35

*If my sons were in this position, expected to put their lives on the line, to fight for a government, I would expect that government to be accountable and democratic.

If I did not consider it to be so, I would be encouraging my sons to run and hide.*

Doesn't work like that though. Otherwise all the Labour-voting soldiers would refuse to fight when the Tories were in power and vice-versa.

The Taliban has people fighting for them, and they're not exactly a beacon of accountability and democracy.

MarshmallowSwede · 17/08/2021 08:37

I wouldn’t want to my son to go fight for a country when the men of that country aren’t even willing to fight. I wouldn’t want any Swedish men dying fighting a lost cause forever. And this is a lost cause. Sometimes you have to know when you have lost and go home.

The Afghanistan army is 300,000 troops. Trained by the Americans with equipment. The Taliban is 79,000.

We have to leave them unfortunately. We can’t expect the Americans to stay there indefinitely. I certainly am not willing to send Swedish army for the next 20 years. It’s just not worth it. If their own army can’t defend it or won’t then we have to just leave it. Some wars cannot be won.