to think the Afghan army did not consider their government worth laying down their lives for....

[54321nought]

They were trained and equipped ( in theory) and expected to stand and fight, and they didn't.

AIBU to think they just had nothing to stand and fight for?

If my sons were in this position, expected to put their lives on the line, to fight for a government, I would expect that government to be accountable and democratic.

If I did not consider it to be so, I would be encouraging my sons to run and hide.

how can we leave other people's sons in this position? Expect them to be prepared to fight to the death to defend a corrupt and non democratic government.

Of course many of them chose not to.

Yeah, on rereading this OP, I think it's worded in a way that looks like it's saying one thing but is saying another.

The first half reads a bit critical, e.g. "why aren't the Afghan army fighting for their country?"

But it ends more like "why are we expecting the Afghan army to fight to defend a corrupt government, that's an unfair expectation". So a bit more empathetic.

I might be wrong but I think if someone only skims the second half of the post they might come away thinking the OP is critisizing the Afghan army, when I think they might be critical instead of those leaving the army in that predicament?

Where have the Taliban been for 20 years?

They have been in Afghanistan fighting and occupying territory. Recently they have been governing provinces. They have been in negotiations with the US and other governments in Doha.

The West and others basically stopped supporting the afghan government and actively undermined it by negotiating with the Taliban. Bottom line was that they knew the Taliban would be power just not as fast as this. Whatever the hand wringing about how, the West knew they were leaving the country to be governed by the Taliban.

While we are asking questions:
What's the Quatari connection?

@FallingStar21

Well, the government clearly didnt consider its people worth fighting for.. So-called president immediately upping and leaving in such a selfish, undignified fashion.

The last time the Taliban came to town, the President was found hanging from a lamp post,

what do you imagine our PM would do?

Afghan army lost 66k personnel fight the Taliban but once they saw their ally, the USA/UK flee the battle scene, they thought better of dying.

The Afghanistan army is 300,000 troops. Trained by the Americans with equipment. The Taliban is 79,000

No one knows how large the Taliban is and i'd certainly not trust the intelligence services who were so wrong on how quickly the country would fall.
Neither the US or the UK troops were engaged in fighting the Taliban, the ANF has been doing that for the last 5 or 6 years.

@LemonTT

Where have the Taliban been for 20 years?

They have been in Afghanistan fighting and occupying territory. Recently they have been governing provinces. They have been in negotiations with the US and other governments in Doha.

The West and others basically stopped supporting the afghan government and actively undermined it by negotiating with the Taliban. Bottom line was that they knew the Taliban would be power just not as fast as this. Whatever the hand wringing about how, the West knew they were leaving the country to be governed by the Taliban.

Exactly. It’s not as if the Taliban have had a unsurprising resurgence.

Even if there was a cause worthy of respect, I think it's a lot easier to believe in a cause when it doesn't involve being in a badly run army for what is obviously going to be the losing side. The whole thing is a shit show. I would guess that not many people (in countries where it is a choice) sign up for the army expecting to die miserably. It's a bit like being a surgeon - you have to have the utmost of confidence in your own abilities or you're useless at the job.

I'm sure there are probably some soldiers with female relatives who wanted to defend them, but I'm less convinced they thought continuing to fight in the army would be the best way to achieve that.

Honestly, I'm wondering what the point of the last 20 years was. There will be some Afghan young women who grew up with a taste of female rights who are now going to get raped, oppressed and slaughtered - would it have been kinder never to have shown them what life could have been? All I know is that as a woman living in the West, I cannot fully comprehend the horrors they are facing and for many of them, the difference between us is geography. I happened to grow up here. They happened to grow up there. It doesn't seem right that they can look forward to so much less.

I'm compartmentalising this because I wouldn't be able to go to work and carry on if my whole brain was thinking about what's happening.

I just don't understand why the West didn't think this was acceptable 20 years ago and yet apparently do now, when we're supposed to care more about equality now than we did in the past. Or is it just equality for people over here?

Looking through the maps of territories lost/contested/gained over the last 6 weeks, it looks like there was more resistance and slower Taliban progress up to the tipping point when the Taliban had the same number of territories as the government and then they just started getting 'peacefully' handed over. Who can blame them, they have seen so much death in their lifetime and once the outcome was becoming obvious and inevitable why die for it. Let's hope they smallest number of civilians possible die now the Taliban is in control.

It must be heartbreaking for those that believed they had a positive future for themselves and their children.

I just don't understand why the West didn't think this was acceptable 20 years ago and yet apparently do now, when we're supposed to care more about equality now than we did in the past. Or is it just equality for people over here?

Oil.

It was a far more valuable prospect 20 years ago than it is now - with the world now focussed on greener energy.

The army apparently have not been paid for months. The president according to reports fled with so much cash they couldn't fit it all into his helicopter and cars so had to dump some of the cash on the tarmac.
I am not so educated on this but I have read that there are many deep tribal loyalties out there so if the elder tribal chiefs have made deals with the taliban, as part of that tribe you are expected to follow that.
Unfortunately all the state of the art equipment the USA gave to the Afghan army will be in the talibans hands now.
Corruption is also huge over there too

You will always get selfish self-serving people in any crisis; and patrioism isn’t always a priority. Just look at how many people have tried to buy European citizenship / foreign passports after Brexit.

@thebeatingofthedrums

Even if there was a cause worthy of respect, I think it's a lot easier to believe in a cause when it doesn't involve being in a badly run army for what is obviously going to be the losing side. The whole thing is a shit show. I would guess that not many people (in countries where it is a choice) sign up for the army expecting to die miserably. It's a bit like being a surgeon - you have to have the utmost of confidence in your own abilities or you're useless at the job.

I'm sure there are probably some soldiers with female relatives who wanted to defend them, but I'm less convinced they thought continuing to fight in the army would be the best way to achieve that.

Honestly, I'm wondering what the point of the last 20 years was. There will be some Afghan young women who grew up with a taste of female rights who are now going to get raped, oppressed and slaughtered - would it have been kinder never to have shown them what life could have been? All I know is that as a woman living in the West, I cannot fully comprehend the horrors they are facing and for many of them, the difference between us is geography. I happened to grow up here. They happened to grow up there. It doesn't seem right that they can look forward to so much less.

I'm compartmentalising this because I wouldn't be able to go to work and carry on if my whole brain was thinking about what's happening.

I just don't understand why the West didn't think this was acceptable 20 years ago and yet apparently do now, when we're supposed to care more about equality now than we did in the past. Or is it just equality for people over here?

A lot of women and girls are using Malala for inspiration (she was shot by the Taliban) and have kept going to school. I expect to read of more girls / women sacrificing their lives for their education.

Malala was not shot by the Afghan Taliban rather a group from pakistan. Majority of the afghan people knew that eventually the Taliban would tale over and would rather be on the winning side hence they were met with so little resistance, just look at the capture of the capital Kabul

The Afghan army did absolutely right to not lay their lives down for their utterly corrupt government. The were basically a bunch of bandits, looting the country in broad daylight, filling their pockets with American tax dollars. And as soon as they were called upon, they ran and left the country. Would you fight for this?

By the way, it’s a little naive to assume that all of this happened by accident and the Americans are trying to explain this with faux wide eyed disbelief.

Nothing, but nothing happens by accident. This happened just the way it was intended. A transition of power without bloodshed is quite a result, and it was always planned this way. The deal: Americans get out unscathed and Taliban keep out of trouble for now. If the Afghan forces had fought, can you imagine how messy that would have been. Americans would not have been able to detach themselves from the conflict for years with that kind of civil war going on. This is a transition of power, nothing more, nothing less. You don’t have to like the Taliban to hand power over to them.

The Palestinians battle even now with just stones & no prospect of winning. The Kurds now, 1930s Chinese & 1950s-70s Vietnamese waged a long term resistance with far less resources than Afghan army has.

Truth is most Afghans are willing to try living under Taliban rule.

I might be wrong but I think if someone only skims the second half of the post they might come away thinking the OP is critisizing the Afghan army, when I think they might be critical instead of those leaving the army in that predicament?

Yes that is exactly what I am saying. "We" ( as in "the West" have thrown the Afghan soldiers into a bear pit

Apparently for a long while the army was on the front line with guests taking a secondary role and they did loose and yes, no payment, food, encouragement etc...

The Afghan army has decided to not fight a futile defence against an overwhelming insurgency. Something that would inevitably lead to civilian deaths on a mass scale and not stopped a Taliban takeover.

Afghanistan has endured 40 years of various international help in the form of foreign invasion, sponsored insurgency, civil war, foreign invasion, sponsored insurgency and now a takeover. The superpowers have destroyed that country and regressed it. Maybe time for less superpowers and let the Afghans work it out.

So I don’t think the West should stay there any longer than needed. But I do think they should have enabled an ordered exodus.

Lemon of course we havant regressed the country

@Xdecd

YABU because you are wrong. The army was trained by US forces, but when they withdrew they took the vast majority of their equipment with them. In particular there had been an emphasis on training in airstrikes and airborne warfare (because that is most of what the US Army now does), but virtually no planes or missiles were left behind.

The Afghan army was actually poorly equipped (both in terms of training and actual equipment) for the way the Taliban fight on the ground. A bit like the US in the Vietnam war.

I heard one commentator comparing it to training a cyclist in the Olympic velodrome for three years and then sending him to Tokyo with a rusty old tricycle. This is all about money. The Americans have maintained a large military presence in South Korea since the 50s. This is because the Koreans have the money to buy their arms. Seoul is full of Americans from Americans defence companies. The Afghans can’t so there’s nothing in it for the US. Biden is a disgrace.His speech was disingenuous.