...to think my cousin's DS has behavioural issues?

[TouchySubject]

I've name changed because I have a feeling my cousin knows my username on here, and this is a very difficult, emotive subject. I also don't know if I'm being unfair or judgemental (I love my family, so if I am, I'll dislike myself even more for thinking these things.)

My cousin's DS is extremely difficult to spend time with. He's just turned 5 and I really struggle when all the kids are playing together. He's very rough, but in a 'loving' way - for example, he'll grab my 3 year old and say he's giving her a cuddle, but he lifts her off her feet and the embrace usually ends with them collapsed in a heap, DD having gotten hurt in the process. He flails around, so other children end up getting clouted by a foot, and throws himself at people (which has regularly resulted in throwing people off-balance and falling over). No amount of asking him to be careful helps, and he doesn't listen to anyone.

He will not stop when asked/told to stop. He is high energy from the moment he gets up to bedtime. My cousin is exhausted as he demands her attention constantly - he won't play alone, he wants her to be involved at all times. He doesn't seem to care how he gets attention - positive or negative. He throws massive tantrums if he doesn't get what he wants. He shouts and yells and generally it's really chaotic. My cousin and other family members try to get him to be careful and be more gentle but he doesn't seem to hear us and if he does, it's ignored.

Is this normal? Do I just not know enough about kids?

@pinkyredrose

Knocking people off their feet could have disastrous consequences for an older person. A broken hip can take months to recover from, an infection could easily set in leading to death.

What are the consequences to him for doing this?

Oh, this is ridiculous! Now he's a potential murderer?! 'consequences' unlikely to have a significant impact as it doesn't sound like he is knocking people over deliberately, more like he's unable to modulate his actions accurately? Look at developing his proprioception/vestibular senses; play balancing games, controlled movement games, demonstrate appropriate amounts of force in different situations. It's about teaching him what he needs to know, not punishing him!

I've not broached it with my cousin; I'm worried about what the impact of that would be. I can tell that other people are shocked by his behaviour sometimes, though as I mentioned, no word from school that I'm aware of. I might not have the full picture on that.

He knows what he's doing. For example, if he's running towards his grandma, my cousin will quickly say "don't push Grandma, be careful" and he'll very deliberately charge at her. Another example is when we all say goodbye - he'll be told to be gentle, and he'll then very deliberately be forceful in the goodbye hugs.

Sometimes he can be very sweet and loving - hugging the smaller kids - but to me this feels like it's for attention as he'll make sure we're watching him by being very vocal about giving a hug etc., so everyone praises him. I've also noticed that when we play with his little sister, or attention is on any of the other kids, his acting out ramps up. It must be attention-seeking . . . ?

Its not typical behaviour to be like this at 5 years old. Being boisterous at times is quite normal, but it should be possible to talk to a five year old,and calm the child down, and tell him that he mustn't go rushing about and hurting other people.

No, that's not normal. But no way to tell if the problem is his make-up, or the parenting.

When he starts school , there are two possibilities.

He continues as now , disrupting his class, refuses all control by teacher.. Your cousin will be called in to discuss , and he'll get referred for assessment.

Or, he will will quickly adjust to his teacher's boundaries and settle down as a lively but manageable child. If that happens your cousin will recognise, there are better ways to handle him that really do work.

    Fingers crossed he gets a teacher he gels with. It can make a transformative difference.

If your cousin is exhausted and struggling you could gently suggest that she seeks some professional support from the school nursing team. You can self-refer to them and they'll be able to listen to her concerns, meet with her DS, and make some suggestions around what they see. In my experience they're non-judgemental and do have some useful suggestions to make, they can also make referrals to other agencies such as paediatrics, occupational therapy, and CAMHS if needed.

I don't want to suggest any diagnosis but it is not typical five year old behaviour or typical boy behaviour. By age five they are usually starting to settle down and have a bit more control over their behaviour, school helps a lot with this, and even naturally boisterous children (of both sexes) are able to dial it down a bit when their behaviour is pointed out to them. The fact that he doesn't register how full-on he is and isn't able to regulate his behaviour suggests to me that professional advice is needed.

From this and a few other things you've mentioned he'll be told to be gentle, and he'll then very deliberately be forceful in the goodbye hugs

Please research sensory seeking, it's part of Sensory Processing Disorder.
There's a lot of info online, this is just one link selected at random.
www.understood.org/articles/en/sensory-seeking-and-sensory-avoiding-what-you-need-to-know

Help is available from a Paediatric Sensory Occupational Therapist. a few NHS areas still provide this service, in most it's now available as private treatment, treatment being fun things for the child to do that make them aware of their impact on their surroundings and their surroundings' impact on them.

If nothing else, you'll have learned a lot about the sensory system that you'd probably never have considered previously and added proprioception, vestibular and interoception to your vocabulary

I'd suggest for the meantime that he's very closely supervised whenever he could be "overenthusiastic" with a child or old person.

It really does sound like there is more going on than high energy.
It must be very difficult for them to manage this.
Hopefully school will guide them to get this looked into.

He sounds like 2 children I know. I quietly suspect adhd in both but I may be wrong as it's a bit too early to tell. One is my nephew and one is a friend's son. Both mums worry at times and suspect SN but school don't raise issues so they carry on and assume it's a phase.

Gosh I don't think he sounds typical at all. I have a friend with a similar DC. I haven't broached it with her because I just don't feel it's my place. Parents similarly broken and exhausted.

@EmeraldShamrock

I know there is no difference between boys and girls on mumsnet however ime there is. One my first DC, gentle DD I'd feel like you did, then I had DS born rough and ready with little awareness of his bulky body. I hated going out with my Dsis she has a girl 6 months younger she'd expect me to constantly give out to DS. I would when it is warranted but it got tiring been around a child who enjoyed getting him in trouble. I've been on both sides.

I can also relate to this @EmeraldShamrock - my friend has two girls and you'd think they were made of China because if my 5yo son so much as brushes past them they shriek like they've been punched in the face and it's "CAREFUL MiniFrangi, gosh how do you cope boys are just SO rough" and her DDs re very much "Ew stinky boys, boys smell, boys are gross" and will do things like wipe a seat if he's sat on it because 'boys have bum germs'. and it pisses me off something rotten. He's actually far more sensitive and gentle and loving than my DD (who is perhaps the most aloof, blunt and thick skinned child I've ever met) he's just a bit faster and clumsier on his feet.

I'll get flamed for this but I often find "girl mums" can be a bit precious about the DDs around boys which I understand when they're older but I've had this since DS was 1yo and it's just silly and perpetuates the gender bullshit that girls are precious and boys are bulldozers

Anyway OP with the limited knowledge of this boy I wouldn't say he has behavioural issue at all, possibly something like ADHD (not a behaviour issue FYI) or dyspraxia- but it's hard to tell when we don't know more

Not typical. I have a 5yo and I would use anything you've said to describe him. My nephew is 4.5yo and I would say he doesn't behave like this at all as well. Sounds like something definitely is going on there. School might pick up on this as well?

I don't think schools at this age necessarily do raise issues. He's still young and ADHD would rarely be diagnosed in a 5 years old. They wait to see if the child is just developing differently. My dd has ADHD and ASD and although she isn't boisterous, some of the behaviours are very similar. It sounds like sensory seeking behaviour and difficulties with emotional regulation. School never really raised concerns until about y3, despite me trying to discuss issues many times before then. She was 8 when diagnosed.

A really mixed set of responses - which is understandable, given the limited info and it all coming down to opinions/experiences etc.

So I guess the question really is . . . should I speak to my cousin and if so, what on Earth do I say? My instinct is not to, it's not my business.

Knocking people off their feet could have disastrous consequences for an older person. A broken hip can take months to recover from, an infection could easily set in leading to death.
What are the consequences to him for doing this?

Oh, this is ridiculous! Now he's a potential murderer?!

It is absolutely not ridiculous and I most certainly did not call him a murderer!

WRT speaking to your cousin, I personally wouldn’t as I’m sure she’s aware that her DS is more challenging than others. If you want to help, just be a sympathetic ear to listen to.

My DS is also 5 and I do suspect he might have ADD/ADHD in some form; DH has traits and I’m starting to think I might have too. He’s not as you describe exactly, but can be really over excitable and can also be unaware of his body; he wouldn’t knock a small child over, nor an older person, but will climb on DH and I for example. At this age though it’s definitely a watch and wait approach and so that may well be what your cousin is doing. He has some friends who are much more boisterous, and some who seem much more mature, so it’s difficult to tell.

And I do tend to agree with pp when they say people who have different natured children don’t understand - this is so true. My DS was the most placid child until he approached 3, and I used to think he would always be this calm, well behaved boy, easy to please/entertain. I was wrong! Some children are very different natured, my second DC has been hard work and very different to my eldest since the minute he was born.

I find boys are like this. I think it’s the rush of male hormones but it’s our jobs as parents to keep reminding them what is acceptable behaviour. It sounds like your cousin hasn’t done this? By 5 I would expect this to be more under control he sounds like my boy at 3 not 5!

It's not the kind of behaviour I see (or would allow) in my boys. Can't believe it took 2 posts before typical "boisterous boy" was mentioned maybe typical in boys not raised with boundaries (or with other issues going on of course).

I find boys are like this.

Fucking hell. Utterly moronic.

Oppositional defiance disorder?
Part of adhd.
He is immediately doing the opposite of what he is asked

OP the fact that you don't even know what you'd say to your cousin is a big indicator that you should say nothing. Limit contact if it bothers you.

I wouldn't say anything to your cousin just now other than being supportive and not saying anything daft like "a good hiding will sort him out" (thanks, FIL...). If she asks you about it or asks you for advice then you could suggest speaking to the school nursing team.

If he's 5 he must have gone to nursery or reception - that should have flagged up any serious problems with behaviour.

School and nursery don't always flag up inappropriate behaviour. For one thing, they have anything up to 30 kids in a class and the teacher can't watch all of them all of the time so a lot flies under the radar. For another, a lot of children with additional needs are very adept at masking in school and ultra-conforming so again will fly under the radar (I'm not saying that the nephew has additional needs, I'm just speaking in general terms). Schools are used to seeing varying levels of maturity and so will make some allowances for this perceived immaturity too. They are also pushed for budgets and time so if your child isn't at the extreme end of the scale a lot gets overlooked when they're in the infants and will only get picked up on when it becomes glaringly obvious and too clear to ignore or excuse away (not at all schools but enough schools, SEN provision is severely lacking in many of them).

this is a very difficult, emotive subject. I also don't know if I'm being unfair or judgemental (I love my family, so if I am, I'll dislike myself even more for thinking these things.)

I want to gently pick up on what you’ve said in your op because it gets right to the heart of the problem of helping children with SN. There isn’t something wrong or defective about their child. He just doesn’t share the same neurotype as the majority.

It shouldn’t feel like a judgement on anyone to notice that a child or a parent is struggling and reach out. There is still a lot of hangover attitudes about bad parenting from previous generations when these difficulties weren’t recognised, or hidden away.

There is loads that can be done to make life easier. The sooner they seek help the better because waiting lists are horrendous. If they can afford it, I’d suggest an occupational therapist ASAP to start addressing his sensory needs.

Asking a child who craves deep sensory feedback to hug gently is like asking a hungry toddler not to lick an ice cream. You need to satiate the desire first, eg by giving deep pressure hugs first.