Ethnic minorities...

[PatricksRum]

Do you answer monitoring questions e.g. What is your ethnicity?

It still makes me feel very uncomfortable and I refuse to provide an answer as I probably will be treated differently.

YABU - I answer
YANBU - I also refuse

I do tend to complete the monitoring forms. I haven't thought of a way that doing so would cause me a disadvantage, mainly because I haven't had to apply for a job or anything else that I could be turned down for.

mainly because I haven't had to apply for a job or anything else that I could be turned down for.

Have you always worked either for yourself or does your family own a business?

Patrick's - if the monitoring's being used in the way it's intended then they don't care what ethnicity you personally are, just what percentage of people fall into each of their categories so they can tell if they're "missing" anyone. Other than asking people, is there any way they could find that out?

Paper-based forms usually used to have these questions on a detachable sheet so that the "main" bit with personal data on could go to one place and the stats stuff could be aggregated elsewhere.

[quote JingsMahBucket]@emuloc no worries, I know it’s tempting. 😉[/quote]
I nearly fell for it too 😮‍💨

@FlatCheese

Patrick's - if the monitoring's being used in the way it's intended then they don't care what ethnicity you personally are, just what percentage of people fall into each of their categories so they can tell if they're "missing" anyone. Other than asking people, is there any way they could find that out?

Paper-based forms usually used to have these questions on a detachable sheet so that the "main" bit with personal data on could go to one place and the stats stuff could be aggregated elsewhere.

What makes you think it's being used in the way it's ^intended? ^ If I tell someone I'm black there's a high probability I will be treated differently.

If you think the data's being misused (as in, targetted at individuals) then don't answer the questions. If someone does genuinely want to aggregate the data make sure they're being fair and unbiased then they won't be able to get the data to show either way.

Or put something else if you think it'll result in better treatment? There's nothing to stop anyone. How would the questioners know? If they knew the answer to the question then they wouldn't need to ask in the first place.

If you think the data's being misused (as in, targetted at individuals) then don't answer the questions.
Yep, if you read thd actual OP you'll see this is what I do. I was asking other ethnic minorities.

If someone does genuinely want to aggregate the data make sure they're being fair and unbiased then they won't be able to get the data to show either way.
Or put something else if you think it'll result in better treatment? There's nothing to stop anyone. How would the questioners know? If they knew the answer to the question then they wouldn't need to ask in the first place.
I don't need to put something else. I just don't answer.

I saw that. Sorry, I meant you generally, rather than you personally. I'm not trying to get at you or saying you're doing something wrong or anything.

Rephrasing - if a person thinks that the data may be misused then that person could leave the optional answers out or alternatively choose an option which they felt suited them better because the person asking the question would not know either way.

I do think there is often a bias when it comes to things like surnames sounding "foreign" and this needs to be looked at - I'd like to see anonymised job applications somehow, for example. As I say, not sure how you'd measure the success of any initiatives put in place without asking for data though.

As I say, not sure how you'd measure the success of any initiatives put in place without asking for data though.

Thing is, as a PP said before, just open your eyes. If there are 500 people in an organisation and the only person of colour is the security guard I'm not exactly sure what an excel spreadsheet full of data will help show.

A lot of these initiatives are in my opinion very questionable too; some of us are 2,3,4,5 generations in, we were born at the same hospitals, educated at the same schools and universities, have similar cultural reference points and consider ourselves British. So why then does the brown or black person require a special 'initiative' to get the same access as their white counterpart who simply sent off a CV and a cover letter?

Because people like numbers as objective data? If you can quantify it then you can tell whether you're making something better or worse and by how much?

I don't know the answer. I don't know how we stop the biases. I wish I did.

Like when orchestras started doing "blind" auditions where they couldn't see the player then they found they hired a lot more women, but they wouldn't previously have thought themselves biased against women. Nothing changed until somebody thought to change the process?

It’s counter productive to not answer it honestly.

I guess it’s down to trust. If you believe that a company will use it badly - which might be justified - then fair enough. However I think that some companies are genuinely trying to show unconscious bias and do something positive. Unless things are quantified, it can be easy to just brush them off - eg our company hires more white people, because more white people apply. If you show that even though more white people apply - the percentage of white people hired is significantly more than expected (statistically), I think the argument becomes more convincing. More people answering these questions can help determine if there is a significant difference or not.

I*f you think the data's being misused, then don't answer the question.

*
This is exactly the reason a lot of people refuse to answer these questions; fear/mistrust/worried of how the data could/will be used (against them). Given how ethnic minorities in the UK have been treated in the past, I can't say I'm surprised, or blame them for feeling that way, however I go against the grain, and do it.

Bold fail

If you think the data is being misused, then don't answer the question.

However I think that some companies are genuinely trying to show unconscious bias and do something positive. Unless things are quantified, it can be easy to just brush them off - eg our company hires more white people, because more white people apply. If you show that even though more white people apply - the percentage of white people hired is significantly more than expected (statistically), I think the argument becomes more convincing. More people answering these questions can help determine if there is a significant difference or not.

People who do hiring for companies are supposed to be qualified and experienced professionals in HR and recruitment.

Over the years I have heard plenty of personal stories from people - including white British- on how companies and recruitment agencies weed people who are ethnic minorities out.

I work in a male dominated sector and companies know how to get more female applicants and so end up with more female employees, but lots still can't be bothered to follow these good recruitment practices as they are paying lip service to actually hiring more women. The companies who do actually end hiring a reasonable percentage of women are companies of all sizes, and absolutely none of them have ever bothered telling me to complete some bullshit form before they find out I'm female. (I have a unisex name so you won't know I'm a woman until I speak to you.)

So why do you think companies aren't aware of how to recruit and employ more ethnic minorities without getting people to tick boxes before hand?

In regards to healthcare and other services I tick the boxes when I know why they are collecting the data. I also now go out of my way to do surveys on service use. A few don't like my feedback but then make sure your individual staff members don't treat people poorly for whatever reason.

Difficult one. I am wary of answering honesty if it will make me feel vulnerable because I’m of an ethnicity that experiences significant prejudice.

n regards to healthcare and other services I tick the boxes when I know why they are collecting the data. I also now go out of my way to do surveys on service use. A few don't like my feedback but then make sure your individual staff members don't treat people poorly for whatever reason.

Totally agree and on the flip side if someone has done a great job, particularly within healthcare I do make the effort to give positive feedback, using PALS etc- and I put my name to the thanks too.

@VladmirsPoutine

mainly because I haven't had to apply for a job or anything else that I could be turned down for.

Have you always worked either for yourself or does your family own a business?

Sorry for the delay in replying @VladmirsPoutine I have worked for the same organisation since the late 1980's. I retired but took on another role with them.