Lying to friends about degree classification

[doctormusic]

DS 21 got a 2:2 in his degree, he's recently been messaging some old friends from school, they've asked him about what he got in his degree. DS is a bit embarrassed about getting a 2:2 as everyone who he went to school with and on his course have been posting on Facebook how they have got 1st's and 2:1's. DS didn't know what whether to lie and say he got a 2:1 but said that he morally thinks it's wrong and it's not a good habit to start telling lies. DH has told DS that he's blowing it out of proportion, he can say he got a 2:1 if he wants to but he should not feel embarrassed in any way of getting a 2:2 and these friends he hasn't seen in at least 2 years and it really doesn't matter.

Is this something which DS has blown out of proportion?

So much snobbery on here

It's not snobbery, it's realism. As with other commodities (and for employment and masters programmes, that's all a 1st degree is), value increases with rarity. When you graduated, about 10% of students got 1sts; now it's three times that.

But of course it only matters for employers who think it's relevant - if you don't then that's very lucky for some of your applicants.

I'd be impressed if you managed to hire a recent graduate with a 3rd, though - rarer than hen's teeth. I don't think my department has awarded a 3rd for at least 10 years. It's like a 4th used to be at Oxford.

I can see your husband's point. There was a thread recently about the "say something interesting about yourself" icebreaker and so many people just said invent something ... Duh, can't believe that had never occurred to me before!

I'm not sure he needs to volunteer his degree classification to friends at all, but if he must I'd go with something like "2:2, a bit disappointed but main thing is I got onto the master's." But, see above, I'm a compulsive truth teller.

'old friends from school' - he really doesn't need to tell them much if not at all.

A few years back graduate schemes stopped hiring people with 2.2s. Probably a response to the big boom in graduates in the 90s, the elevation of less academically selective institutions to university status, employers were seeking to narrow their applicant pool. In response however, because employment numbers factor into rankings, universities now simply give out fewer and fewer 2.2 & below degrees.

My first degree (Russell Group, Scotland) was a 2:ii in 1997. 🤷🏻‍♀️ In hindsight, I was too young, and was only 16 when I went to Uni; graduated at 20.
But, I got onto an MSc (overseas), which I got a Distinction in. This led me into doing my PhD in 2011, which I did alongside working in my Uni. (Still Russell Group, Scotland.)

I think it’s different now, in that now students get higher grades, as a classification no longer relies on your results from 7 exams in 10 days - and your dissertation, of course.

The year after me was the first time Edinburgh even did split finals, never mind any continuous assessment. I was gutted at my classification at the time, and almost didn’t go to my graduation. I messed up on two exams, which was enough to make me bomb down - I was predicted a high 2:i. How wrong could I be!

Anyway, degree classifications aren’t the be all and end all, and I think it’s more important to be honest; own it, and he’s gotten in to his masters programme, which is really to be celebrated!

it is all part of the grade/degree inflation which helps no-one.
when I graduated in 1970 (that makes me ancient!) only one person got a 1st (and he went on to become a professor). The rest of us got a 2.1 (or a 2.2 like myself). As others have said - no-one gives a stuff during your career about what degree classification you obtained - so long as you are intelligent enough to do the job.
When I started work in IT some of us were graduates, while others were school leavers or A level entrants we were all equal in our ability to do the job.

Similar situation with A levels - I obtained 4 - grades B,C,D,E and I had been clever enough to pass the 11+ and attend grammar school from a small village school. Incidentally those A level grades were considered good enough to get me into a good University

If most people get A or A* how will the best candidates for Uni or the workplace be identified.

I don't think any harm can be done lying about it.

I got a 3rd (7 years ago) and I'm doing well for myself.

It does depend on the degree of course but performance is much much more than academic achievement

Of course it is, and I don't think most jobs need a degree at all. But if where employers ask for a degree, the one with the degree result that puts them in the bottom 20% is going to be at a disadvantage. Doesn't mean other things can't compensate for it.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland

A few years back graduate schemes stopped hiring people with 2.2s. Probably a response to the big boom in graduates in the 90s, the elevation of less academically selective institutions to university status, employers were seeking to narrow their applicant pool. In response however, because employment numbers factor into rankings, universities now simply give out fewer and fewer 2.2 & below degrees.

Yep back in 2005 graduate programmes were mainly restricted to 2:1. There was some 2:2s but actually I had a 2:1 but I had crap a levels and couldn't get passed some application forms as my a levels were so rubbish

I graduated in 2019- mature student

The guardian reckoned about 30% of students graduating my year for first class with a further 50% getting 2:1’s

Most grad schemes won’t take you with less than a 2:1 now. In my honest opinion it’s not worth going to uni for a 2:2 nowadays and I’d be disappointed if I’d got that or my kids did. I can fully empathise with why he doesn’t want to tell them but they’re gonna know when he doesn’t answer right away. People who get firsts or 2:1’s are usually very wiling to tell you so

I guess my quandary is about whether lying is a useful strategy to develop to avoid embarrassment/disappointment or whatever other feeling is making him want to lie.

I suppose in the future they’ll be other things he will be disappointed about. Is he going to lie about that to friends too? When he’s 33 and hasn’t bought a house but his friends have, does he lies about that? Etc etc etc

I think maybe learning to manage situations like this without lying is probably useful to everyone.

Also I’m thinking the fact he lies to friends about the 2:2 will feel more shameful than the 2:2 itself after a month or two.

As you say though. He’s an adult so will make his own choice.

@Lonelylooloo

I graduated in 2019- mature student

The guardian reckoned about 30% of students graduating my year for first class with a further 50% getting 2:1’s

Most grad schemes won’t take you with less than a 2:1 now. In my honest opinion it’s not worth going to uni for a 2:2 nowadays and I’d be disappointed if I’d got that or my kids did. I can fully empathise with why he doesn’t want to tell them but they’re gonna know when he doesn’t answer right away. People who get firsts or 2:1’s are usually very wiling to tell you so

Whilst I agree in part with what you’re saying, it could be argued (I remember using that phrase during my assignments a fair few times 🤣) that what uni someone attended could be equally important, then the subject.

A 2:2 from Oxbridge in Maths, English etc…would hold far more clout that a first from a former polytechnic in a subject such media studies….

He should definitely be honest about it.

The most important thing is he's onto the next stage without a problem. That's great.

However things do come out and it will seem a much, much bigger deal if it becomes something he lied about.

Perhaps he can work his socks off and get a Distinction in the next bit? Use this as fire in his belly?

I got a first and barely anyone knew about it, it was never discussed other than close family. I always felt it made little difference and I’d never drop it into conversation as I’d sound like a dick! Are people actually asking him what he got or is he wondering what he should post on FB because that’s what others are doing? FB wasn’t around when I graduated hence no dilemma!!

Do degree certificates nowadays actually show the class of degree?

As for lying about it, best not to.

My husband got a 2:2 in dentistry, his mum calls it the drunken degree. He then got a place on a masters course to specialise in a field of dentistry. There's only 5 places a year for people in the UK and overseas and he got a place on his first try. Your son got a degree that's all that matters.

@Bollockstothat

I'm very surprised by a previous poster's comment that only five percent of her department get a 2:2 or less. Isn't that akin to half of A level candidates getting A's

5% is probably an over-estimate. This year, all our students graduated with a 2.1 or 1st. And it's not just my department or my university - I know it's similar at comparable universities elsewhere.

I really think the degree classification system should be scrapped altogether - it was always pretty shit and now it's completely useless - to work at all as any kind of indicator of anything you'd need to split the 2.1 and 1st classifications. Much better just to give students a percentage grade (and a class ranking where employers or masters applications ask for it).

I graduated nearly 50 years ago, and at that time 2.2 was the bog standard degree, 3rd was below average, and Pass almost akin to a fail. About 10% got a 2.1 and one or two outstanding students got a first.

So yeah, from my perspective, the degree classification system is no longer doing its job. If students have got better over the years, then the standards should be raised across the board, and a higher mark required to get a 2.1 or a first. Same applies to A levels.

I got a 2:2 and I’m a bit embarrassed tbh. I avoid telling people where I can and if they ask I tell them it was a 2:1 😂 It practically was anyway, if my grade average had been something like 0.5% higher I’d have had the 2:1. Honestly, at the time it felt like the end of the world but 13 years later I don’t give a shit.

@bunnybuggs

it is all part of the grade/degree inflation which helps no-one. when I graduated in 1970 (that makes me ancient!) only one person got a 1st (and he went on to become a professor). The rest of us got a 2.1 (or a 2.2 like myself). As others have said - no-one gives a stuff during your career about what degree classification you obtained - so long as you are intelligent enough to do the job. When I started work in IT some of us were graduates, while others were school leavers or A level entrants we were all equal in our ability to do the job.

Similar situation with A levels - I obtained 4 - grades B,C,D,E and I had been clever enough to pass the 11+ and attend grammar school from a small village school. Incidentally those A level grades were considered good enough to get me into a good University

If most people get A or A* how will the best candidates for Uni or the workplace be identified.

Lots of graduate schemes now do ‘first come first serve’. The first candidates to pass all stages get the job . It’s the stragglers who have to compete.

IMO less people should go to full time university and more into vocational courses or part time degrees. The majority of jobs don’t require degrees and ‘critical thinking’ blah blah blah doesn’t need 3 years of pure study to develop. In fact it’s possible to graduate by having a piss up and not having learned anything at all.

I think it’s quite bizarre that your DH would tell your son to lie about his qualifications if he wants to.

^ I agree. You need to build up his self esteem if his role model is a man who thinks it's OK to lie to friends to not feel shit about himself. DH should be telling him that anyone who would judge him isn't a true friend.

I am amazed that it is estimated that a third of all students graduate with a first.

I went to a pretty average (old) university in the 1990s and there were two firsts in my year of about 130 odd students.

When I did my masters degree at the same university, there was one distinction (the classification was distinction/pass/fail) out of 30 odd students.

I am just surprised at how different things are now. Proper old codger, me.

@MikeWozniaksMohawk

“It wasn’t as good as I would have hope but I got onto the course I wanted to do so I suppose that’s what’s important”

Honest without actually telling them his result, and focuses on the positive of him doing his next course.

I second this. When I graduated nobody asked anyone for their results, only whether they had finished their degree or not. And we celebrated together or wish luck for the next term exams. End of. Only myself knows my final marks, still to this day.

@MikeWozniaksMohawk

“It wasn’t as good as I would have hope but I got onto the course I wanted to do so I suppose that’s what’s important”

Honest without actually telling them his result, and focuses on the positive of him doing his next course.

This. He shouldn’t lie. DH would be better helping him to reflect upon his mistakes snd their inevitable consequences, then learn to live with and accept them and just move on. Lying about something like this is not good for the psyche!

I think honesty is the best policy, but in reality are friends asking him over and over about this ? After a few weeks surely it’s a non issue and to be honest will one 21 yr old really bother about another getting a 2-2? Don’t they all have better things to do?

@54321nought

I've got a third, and always been totally upfront about it and have never been unemployed for a single day.

If I'd lied 40 years ago, I would have had to keep a careful lie diary, so I could keep up the lie to the lie-ees, and make sure they never met the people I had told the truth to....

@54321nought I got a third too, no one else I know would ever admit that. Must just be me& you then.