Work telling us we wont get opportunity's if we don't show our faces?

[lovemenomore]

Hi all,

Wanted to know if IABU for being peed off/demoralised at this message from the owner of the company I work for.

Basically started the job in Jan & it has been 100% remote due to Covid/office closed etc. Since the restrictions have lifted I have been in and met colleagues but continued to wfh as do 75% of the company. There has been talk of us never having to go back in full time and people can choose what to do. Nothing formal has been announced. If we do want to go in we have had to book in. However the other day this was posted on our internal comms site;

"While booking is now no longer required, we are noting who turns up. Expect those that do to get the best opportunities and progression. It's obvious that being 'front and centre' means you are top of mind. We've always been a company that prioritises what you do and achieve over simple time served, this is just one aspect of that."

What are your thoughts? To me that is saying if you dont come in you will not be given the opportunities....

Lots of the staff arent local and live all over the country/world. A few of my colleagues are miffed but some friends have said all companies are like this?

@TheKeatingFive

I honestly do not think that enabling women to take on additional caring responsibilities while simultaneously juggling the demands of a job is good for them or represents progress in any way.

That’s not to say additional flexibility over office hours wouldn’t be a welcome step forward.

I have no choice about my caring responsibilities, same as many others. My ex barely sees our kids (is able to do his job without the worries of school closures of COVID and trying to work whilst home schooling but that's a whole other thread).

I have to work too- I know that most families with married parents also do but again as a single parent their really is no one but me to provide for the kids.

So anything that actually increases my ability to work full time, to help me have that flexibility, to not be totally exhausted on top of looking after the kids as well, is brilliant IMO.

I'm lucky, I have a great employer. It's about give and take- like I said I'm fully prepared to be in the office when needed.

I don't see why this should be such an unrealistic hope for all of us tbh. Like I said, the race to the bottom is depressing.

Strawberry, Unless there is a long commute then working from home vs working in the office shouldn’t make any difference to personal circumstances. If there is a commute it’s known prior to taking a job.
So unless people aren’t booking childcare or doing housework whilst meant to be working then really no reason to stay home.

It is definitely not nicely written and I think they should have used other words, but unfortunately this is the reality.
If they suggest to work in the office and you decide to keep WFH 100%, this is a natural consequence you have to expect.

I was very disappointed few weeks ago because company told me they wanted to keep my current position as 100% WFH. This would have cut my career possibilities and made myself more at risk of being replaced by someone living in Italy or other countries - cutting the salary by 50%....
When they announced they changed their mind and position will be hybrid I was relieved.

Well there’s a convincing argument

Equally as convincing as yours and Blossomtoe's.

OK. Jeer away. Time will tell.

It will indeed. And it won't tell what you think it will. You and the other dodos need to prepare.

So anything that actually increases my ability to work full time, to help me have that flexibility, to not be totally exhausted on top of looking after the kids as well, is brilliant IMO.

Like I say, I 100% agree with flexibility in office hours. But this doesn’t necessarily mean wfh.

Obviously cool if wfh works for both you and your employer. But it’s very far from being ‘better’ for everyone.

Well there’s a convincing argument

If you say so 😂 😂

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss

Strawberry, Unless there is a long commute then working from home vs working in the office shouldn’t make any difference to personal circumstances. If there is a commute it’s known prior to taking a job. So unless people aren’t booking childcare or doing housework whilst meant to be working then really no reason to stay home.

🤦‍♀️

Yes. And many people did this pre-pandemic without too much complaining. Whilst still struggling. Because until last year, there was no other way.

Now a different way has been proven to work in many circumstances, why should the people who struggled before not be given more consideration when thinking about future ways of working?

Or are you happy for women to continually be disadvantaged? I do get what posters are saying about flexible working still causing issues for women but for me, it has helped massively, and I know other single mums who feel the same.

It's not a reality I recognise, tbh. I have WFH for a few years now - as part of a company that is mainly office based. It has not appeared to hinder my visibility or progression in that time. In fact, of my office based peers, I am probably the most well known and recognised by the Board. I have also been promoted and had a number of salary increases to recognise extra responsibilities passed to me.

Continuing with the anecdotes, we are currently trying to hire a number of staff and finding it almost impossible because, for that role, there is limited WFH allowed. Almost every candidate is now expecting 3-4 days a week at home and rejecting offers where that is not part of the package. Upping the salaries offered for those roles by £10-15k is not making a massive difference either.

All that might change yet, I suppose. But it feels more like an escalation of the way the industry was changing, anyway.

They might regret that policy - being ‘front and centre’ does not make you any more capable than someone who is in the office a little less. Reminds me that “the empty tin cans make the most noise”

@HeyDemonsItsYaGirl

Well there’s a convincing argument

Equally as convincing as yours and Blossomtoe's.

OK. Jeer away. Time will tell.

It will indeed. And it won't tell what you think it will. You and the other dodos need to prepare.

You haven’t made any argument, let alone a convincing one. As a pp says, history definitely isn’t on your side.

@TheKeatingFive I'm lucky because yes it does work well for me and for my employer. There will always be jobs where it isn't possible- where it is possible though, consideration should be given to it.

Obviously I'm viewing this through the lens of being a single mum but I definitely think it's a lens worth looking through! It's not fair that my ex can work completely free from the worries about juggling work with childcare etc. I think this is one area where women are always disadvantaged so anything that helps is positive IMO.

I think the fact that none of my colleagues or myself want to avoid the office all the time makes the difference- we genuinely want hybrid working and not full time wfh forevermore. I would imagine that for most people, hybrid working would be the best option- and I imagine it would work for a lot of businesses too.

So unless people aren’t booking childcare or doing housework whilst meant to be working
If you have teenagers who can look after themselves but can’t be left at home alone, then it’s massively helpful to be able to wfh. If you can get home for 4pm and be in the house working till 6pm while your teens come home, grab a snack and get on with their homework upstairs. That’s not affecting your productivity but it makes your life so much easier and saves money.

People should just own their reasons though, for those who simply enjoy it and want to continue. It is annoying to see people citing disability etc when they have given zero fucks before, and it's not like its a selfless act, but using them for their own wants so it's not progressive or anything. As you say, some people have been struggling on for years and everyone was very quiet.

I quoted a part that suggested because some people had gone to work precovid, they must be fine to now.

And yes, this policy absolutely could be seem as discrimination.

I am not sure I see the issue with people pointing that out. Pointing that out, just citing disability when it suits

Thankfully, my employer doesn't have this attitude. I was hybrid before.

But my son has autism and its something I have worked with 2 companies on before the pandemic. I am not disabled, I enjoy working from home. Your colleagues may have been quiet before, but many of us weren't. But I don't think that stops us giving an opinion on MN.

Overthebow I find that quite sad really. I'm not suggesting managers check work but they should know who's the most productive in their team re workload etc.

I've worked in a job before where there were a few who chatted and networked the managers and did little extras but actually didn't do their roles to any standard and that was covered by others who spent so much time doing more of the workload they didn't have time to do extras or suck up to management.

When one of them retired and the leaving do was a performance event rather than any real emotion the manager asked a few of us what was up.

To be fair she actually did take on board what was said and did ask why we didn't say something before.

We just said because it's not that easy to approach managers and complain without sounding petulant and even harder when you are complying to manager about a staff member she's Uber friendly with.

Things did improve because when a few tried to take this woman's place and offer to do extras the manager would ask if they'd done x y and z first!

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss

Strawberry, Unless there is a long commute then working from home vs working in the office shouldn’t make any difference to personal circumstances. If there is a commute it’s known prior to taking a job. So unless people aren’t booking childcare or doing housework whilst meant to be working then really no reason to stay home.

Long and incredibly expensive commutes are fairly standard in London and the surrounding areas. If you've decided to move to the other end of the country to your job then fair dos, it's your own lookout. But suddenly regaining 15 hours a week and saving a fortune on public transport and wrap-around childcare has been a real eye opener for a lot of people and it's hardly surprising they are keen to keep some of that.

That’s not affecting your productivity but it makes your life so much easier and saves money.

It’s not just about your own personal productivity though. There are the less tangible impacts that people have when working face to face with others, particularly with junior staff.

And it’s fine for you to value being at home more, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable for there to be consequences to this.

Where flexible working is allowed, it will be women to take the most "advantage" of it, but they'll still have full time jobs to do at the same time as picking up even more of the child rearing stuffandthey'll miss out on opportunities although not being in the office, whether there is an overt policy/announcement such as this, or not.

Depends on how backwards the employer is. Many don't see presenteeism as an advantage. As women had this issue (as a group) before covid, wfh would change that. We need a society wide change on why people still the home parenting is not more equal. Wfh or working away from, home. This is a problem.

Men's jobs will "need" them to be in the office/networking after work, while women will arrange things so they can be at home. It's just the same as what I saw when I worked in a male dominated corporate banking world. They didn't need to work long hours to get the work done, they chose to because it suited their lifestyle and their ego. The fact that they got home after bathtime was a bonus!

Again, depends how backward thinking the company is. If a company doesn't care about presenteeism and its actually half decent, the blokes wasting time in teb office are negatively judged.

And again, this was a problem before covid. People wasting time in offices, but if there's effective management, it's kept to a minimum.

Some companies have been wfh or hybrid for years. Women, with or without closure have been promoted. People work internationally with team members on other continents. Young new staff had still be trained and got experience.

It can be done and it can be done correctly. Not sure why people are so convinced iys going to be damaging. Wfh is always not going to be right for some companies and some employees.

But all the faux concern for women or young people, whilst ignoring the fact that companies do it and do it well, is quite odd.

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss

Strawberry, Unless there is a long commute then working from home vs working in the office shouldn’t make any difference to personal circumstances. If there is a commute it’s known prior to taking a job. So unless people aren’t booking childcare or doing housework whilst meant to be working then really no reason to stay home.

You are demonstrating very limited empathy or imagination here.

I am a carer for my disabled DH as well as working full-time (and I'm on leave at the moment before anyone makes a snide comment about MNing during working hours). When I was in the office FT or near-FT in a previous job, if my DH had a medical emergency I would have to leave work and there would be a delay in me getting to him even though my commute is not excessively long. The first day after things settled down and I was back in the office I would be more distracted, because I'm only human and I would be worried about him. My mind would wander...is he really okay? Has he taken his medication? I'd check my phone more frequently than usual. I would get some work done of course, but I would not be my most productive.

Now, WFH the majority of the time, I don't have that same level of worry and interruption. If he starts feeling certain symptoms he texts me from downstairs or pops his head round the bedroom door and I be with him in seconds and stop it escalating to the kind of situation that saw me pulled away from the office. I can instantly check his levels and adjust his meds if needed, I can encourage him to lie down and sleep for a little while. And then after that short break, maybe 5-10 minutes, I'm back at my desk and I don't have that same level of distracting worry because I'm on hand if he needs me again. It's also a lot easier to stay logged on a little longer to finish a certain piece of work, or log on earlier in a way I couldn't do when I was tied to commuting. So my current employer, who is more forward-thinking, grants home-working contracts and has already stated their commitment to hybrid working post-Covid, gets a more productive, less distracted employee willing to work beyond contracted hours when it's needed.

I don't think anyone "sees" presenteeism as an advantage. It's not that, it's out of sight out of mind. Opportunities go to the people who are visible, whether that's deliberate or subconscious.

And it’s fine for you to value being at home more, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable for there to be consequences to this.

There are consequences to everything. Mainly office-based working has consequences. Mainly WFH will have them too, just different ones.

All of life is a trade off.

You haven’t made any argument, let alone a convincing one.

You've said exactly the same as me but the opposite way

As a pp says, history definitely isn’t on your side.

Yes, it is. Companies have been moving towards more flexible working for years; the pandemic just gave it a big shove. Outsourcing positions to cheaper countries has been feasible for the last couple of decades, but only a tiny proportion of jobs were moved and the trend was to bring those back into the UK.

You have no argument and no evidence, just wishful thinking.

@Blossomtoes

We're never going back to an office-based culture

I think you’ll find we are. It takes a lot more than 18 months in a national emergency to change decades of culture, especially if the youngest section of the workforce wants to be office based.

@Blossomtoes for young people, for meetings, for socials, for training - I can see a point of being in an office or at least a place with colleagues. But two hours plus a day in traffic just to sit at a computer in a different building so a middle manager can check if you're playing sudoku, no thanks.

@Carycy

But it isn’t just about doing the work. What about passing on your knowledge to younger, less experienced colleagues, being and ear yto bend over and issues, supervising others work etc,etc. If you are experienced and just work from home and refuse to work as part of a team that’s kind of selfish and you are only performing one aspect of your job.

Nail on the head. It's the younger/trainee staff who will suffer if there aren't many people around them. It's not just "formal" training, it's more general than that, such as observing them dealing with difficult situations, etc. Even just being around mature/experience people makes a massive difference to young adults.

And if there are only a few experienced staff in the building, they'll suffer because they're the ones who have to train/supervise/mentor the younger staff, at the cost of their own work. Such time would be spread over a much higher number of staff if they were all in the workplace.

It's interesting that people clinging to the office are so desperate for nobody to be allowed to work from home. TheKeatingFive, for example, appears on every single thread about working from home to doomsay. I can only assume they're the people that spend all day hovering around different desks chatting, and now that colleagues are working from home they actually have to do some work?

There are consequences to everything. Mainly office-based working has consequences. Mainly WFH will have them too, just different ones.

All of life is a trade off.

Well … sure.

But we’re more familiar with the trade offs of office based working. We’ve been dealing with them for years. I think many haven’t fully understood the trade offs of working from home long term, particularly when colleagues are spending a lot of time in the office. I don’t think the OP’s company is saying anything very controversial.