Work telling us we wont get opportunity's if we don't show our faces?

[lovemenomore]

Hi all,

Wanted to know if IABU for being peed off/demoralised at this message from the owner of the company I work for.

Basically started the job in Jan & it has been 100% remote due to Covid/office closed etc. Since the restrictions have lifted I have been in and met colleagues but continued to wfh as do 75% of the company. There has been talk of us never having to go back in full time and people can choose what to do. Nothing formal has been announced. If we do want to go in we have had to book in. However the other day this was posted on our internal comms site;

"While booking is now no longer required, we are noting who turns up. Expect those that do to get the best opportunities and progression. It's obvious that being 'front and centre' means you are top of mind. We've always been a company that prioritises what you do and achieve over simple time served, this is just one aspect of that."

What are your thoughts? To me that is saying if you dont come in you will not be given the opportunities....

Lots of the staff arent local and live all over the country/world. A few of my colleagues are miffed but some friends have said all companies are like this?

It's to get people back into the work place. I can't say I blame them for that. I work in an organisation where HR have decided they will continue to work from home some of the time even though the rest of us have been classed as key workers and have had to go in throughout everything and that is that. It's mad for morale.

People should just do the jobs they applied for and go back. You can't be a proper part of team if you are never - or a rarely- there.

Sounds like the policy reflects reality. Out of sight, out of mind.

I'm a bit confused, did people live across the country and around the world before covid? If so then its unreasonable to disadvantage those who evidently took the job originally with some sort of remote working arrangement. If they have moved since lockdown then that's a bit foolish unless contracts have been updated to say working from home will be permanent, and would surely be an issue with a hybrid model. I expect most businesses will eventually go for a mixture, although with London weighting etc if its mostly remote I guess it can get tricky

@Carycy hear hear! Also sick of the whining from the WFH brigade.

@lovemenomore are you planning to show your face to comment on this thread? Frankly, as you are not turning up we are doubting your commitment and this has been noted!

This would be against the law. Unless they stipulated that all staff need to return to the office they are discriminating and could face people who are in unions and know their rights bringing a case against them.
Being visible does not equate to working hard.

I am genuinely interested to know exactly what law is being broken, especially if the working arrangements prior to covid was everyone working from the office?

Lots of people took jobs with big commutes that meant others, who were probably at least as good but couldn’t do long commutes, couldn’t take the opportunity. Not in the least surprised that those who got the job will be enthused by the option to work from home whilst still getting the “London weighted” salary.
I think employers are right to insist that you all get off your arses, go in to the office and do the job you are paid for. Any who don’t should be sidelined.
Good luck and best wishes to those of you who are making the effort to get to work and support the country’s recovery.

This would be against the law. Unless they stipulated that all staff need to return to the office they are discriminating and could face people who are in unions and know their rights bringing a case against them.

In what way? Unless their contracts have been changed to WFH (as mine has) then I don't understand what law has been broken.

@Gbtch

Lots of people took jobs with big commutes that meant others, who were probably at least as good but couldn’t do long commutes, couldn’t take the opportunity. Not in the least surprised that those who got the job will be enthused by the option to work from home whilst still getting the “London weighted” salary. I think employers are right to insist that you all get off your arses, go in to the office and do the job you are paid for. Any who don’t should be sidelined. Good luck and best wishes to those of you who are making the effort to get to work and support the country’s recovery.

Well people can do a bit of both. Wfh for a bit of the week, in the office for the rest.

It’s worth reflecting on how workplaces have evolved over the years/centuries. Business owners like to have control over their employees because they don’t trust them. So they adopt punitive measures like timesheets, making them stay in the office so they can “see” what they’re doing. But fundamentally- why does being in an office make a difference?

I suspect it’s because they don’t like to acknowledge that their employees actually have lives outside of work. Imagine that. May as well chain them to their desks.

[quote Macaroni46]@Carycy hear hear! Also sick of the whining from the WFH brigade. [/quote]
Pretty sure they are sick of people who its not relevant to moaning about them and giving loads of reasons why they shouldn't that don't even make sense.

But here we are!

Good luck and best wishes to those of you who are making the effort to get to work and support the country’s recovery.

Give over. You can support the countries recovery and wfh/hybrid.

I take you have travelled into the office all the way through, to support the economy?

Well people can do a bit of both. Wfh for a bit of the week, in the office for the rest.

It’s worth reflecting on how workplaces have evolved over the years/centuries. Business
owners like to have control over their employees because they don’t trust them. So they adopt punitive measures like timesheets, making them stay in the office so they can “see” what they’re doing. But fundamentally- why does being in an office make a difference?

I suspect it’s because they don’t like to acknowledge that their employees actually have lives outside of work. Imagine that. May as well chain them to
Pretty sure they are sick of people who its not relevant to moaning about them and giving loads of reasons why they shouldn't that don't even make sense.

But here we are!

Ugly,
That’s the point. We can all do a bit of both . But a full time job needs full time attention, whether it’s in work or looking after children. You cannot do two full time jobs in one day.
By saying you can undermines any ( tiny) acknowledgment we women have gained for the responsibilities of child care.
Also, as a manager, I know what advantages some people will take if the boss isn’t watching. You can’t pretend that does not happen. For any business to succeed we need trust. But we also need the right level of checks and balances to ensure the whole business is on track. It’s very difficult to do that if people are not visible.
There are also immeasurable benefits to having your team together . To bounce ideas of each other, to check that everyone is ok, to help out if they are not, to build that “ team spirit” that is essential to business success and wellbeing of the staff.
Get into the office. Work together. Support each other. Ensure correct considerate care for those who are dependant on you outside of the office/ workplace. Help each other recover, together from the nightmare we have just experienced. Some more than others.

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But a full time job needs full time attention, whether it’s in work or looking after children. You cannot do two full time jobs in one day.

No one has said you can. Wfh/hybrid helping with child care doesn't mean doing full time child care for toddlers while trying to work a full time job.

By saying you can undermines any ( tiny) acknowledgment we women have gained for the responsibilities of child care.

Again, no one said that. And the fact that the opinion on child care is directed at women, is a problem in society. Which you are perpetuating.

Also, as a manager, I know what advantages some people will take if the boss isn’t watching. You can’t pretend that does not happen.

That's already been discussed. And yes you can. If I go away and my team fails because I am not watching them, that's a reflection on me as a manager. And it would be poor.

But we also need the right level of checks and balances to ensure the whole business is on track. It’s very difficult to do that if people are not visible.

Not in modern working its not.

There are also immeasurable benefits to having your team together . To bounce ideas of each other, to check that everyone is ok, to help out if they are not, to build that “ team spirit” that is essential to business success and wellbeing of the staff.

And many people can achieve that without being in the office. Many teams, for many years have been spread around the world in all sorts of different business. They achieve it.

Get into the office. Work together. Support each other. Ensure correct considerate care for those who are dependant on you outside of the office/ workplace. Help each other recover, together from the nightmare we have just experienced. Some more than others.

That sort of working isn't for everyone. Not everyone wants to be their colleagues support system. That's no reflection on how good they are at their job.

And you didn't answer the question did you travel into the office everyday during the pandemic? To support the economy and your colleagues that may come into the office?

Isnt this a form of discrimination?

You could do your job from home, just as efficiently or even better than someone who goes into the office

Why do posters keep going on about discrimination?

If you started work in an office before covid unless your contract has changed to WFH it isn't discrimination.

On the other hand if you started the job during the pandemic on a WFH contract then you might be able to argue your case.

Better than promoting people just because they’ve always been there! This cultivates a system where the dead wood bobs to the surface for no good reason and then sits there floating along on an undeservedly high wage. They should promote people who are effective, present (not necessarily full time but enough that they are available and feel like part of the team) and generally committed to the job.

If your kids are your priority and work comes second, good on you for being a great parent but surely it’s obvious that work might favour staff who don’t have huge competing demands on their time and energy.

And the fact that the opinion on child care is directed at women, is a problem in society. Which you are perpetuating.

This.

I work in a male-dominated organisation (I'm the only woman in my department.) I think having more flexible working allows fathers to do more active parenting. Certainly some of my peers have been the ones to deal with sick children over the years, or take them to the dentist and so on. Some of them were doing the brunt of home-schoolingin lockdown. I don't think this would happen as much if we had a culture of presenteeism.

Also, it helps that a Swedish colleague took a year off to be the stay-at-home parent, so we see examples of men being decent parents and managing it with work. Obviously it can't be the same everywhere - different countries have different rights around parental leave and so on - but it shows what is possible, and that parenting doesn't have to default to the mother, (once breast-feeding is over, anyway.) And some of this is easier for all employees to manage because of more flexible and hybrid working practices.

It’s very difficult to do that if people are not visible.

You can be visible in other ways. On video meetings, calling people to discuss ideas, submitting ideas and reports. Doing your job. This idea that you have to be seen in an office just seems so backwards now. That’s about control, micromanagement and lack of trust. None of those are good things.

Help each other recover, together from the nightmare we have just experienced.

Stuck for hours on dirty public transport each day wasting large chunks of our own time, money and carbon all to sit in a sterile, noisy fluorescent light environment with people yammering on Often about irrelevancies WAS part of the nightmare for some of us.

I would seek legal advice and show that you have been working for over 6 months in a certain format and your achievements, most companies have adapted by now

@Ijustknowitstimetogo

It’s very difficult to do that if people are not visible.

You can be visible in other ways. On video meetings, calling people to discuss ideas, submitting ideas and reports. Doing your job. This idea that you have to be seen in an office just seems so backwards now. That’s about control, micromanagement and lack of trust. None of those are good things.

Help each other recover, together from the nightmare we have just experienced.

Stuck for hours on dirty public transport each day wasting large chunks of our own time, money and carbon all to sit in a sterile, noisy fluorescent light environment with people yammering on Often about irrelevancies WAS part of the nightmare for some of us.

Amen! Filthy, packed like sardines tube (now the prime opportunity for catching covid because its underground and there is no fresh air) where you cant get a seat and forced to stand finely balancing on tiptoe and in someone's armpit. Horrific experience I have lived through twice a day 5 days a week for many years commuting in London for 3 hours a day. Commuting while pregnant was the final straw, people would not give up their seats and you were still sometimes squished up if there was a problem or delay or a thousand other issues. There are way too many people living in London and the infrastructure simply doesnt support all of them commuting at once together with all the tourists and those commuting from elsewhere. I have been on the tube recently and it's been so great, you can find a seat and actually read a book, there are no breakdowns or delays,a completely different commute. I dont want to go back to the way it was, it was utterly exhausting and demoralising and honestly I couldn't do it every day now that I have a toddler to boot. Many people who live around London are in the same position, few can afford close to work. The hybrid solution seems the best option to me

Whether this is reasonable or not depends on how many people show up. If 2/3 of the office is there in person, then yeah, it's natural that they'll all be more comfortable and familiar with each other than with the 1/3 who's never there. But if nearly everyone remains primarily remote, then nearly everyone will have only a "remote" level of comfort and familiarity with anyone else, regardless of whether the second person goes into the office or not. The only people who might have a legitimate personal preference for the in-person rather than the remote workers will be the 3-4 people who are in-person themselves, and that's too small a number to make a difference in most companies. If those 3-4 still find themselves consistently promoted over others, then it looks more like intentionally punishing everyone else at that point.

@lunepremiere79 I couldn’t go back to 5 day per week commuting either. I didn’t have to contend with London transport/pregnancy, but the sheer frustration and waste of time spent in traffic, driving to a job that I’ve demonstrated I can do perfectly well at home. Thank god we’re going back with a hybrid arrangement, the best of both worlds IMO.

@Gbtch

Lots of people took jobs with big commutes that meant others, who were probably at least as good but couldn’t do long commutes, couldn’t take the opportunity. Not in the least surprised that those who got the job will be enthused by the option to work from home whilst still getting the “London weighted” salary. I think employers are right to insist that you all get off your arses, go in to the office and do the job you are paid for. Any who don’t should be sidelined. Good luck and best wishes to those of you who are making the effort to get to work and support the country’s recovery.

My friend had the chance to have their contracts amended if they wants to be permanently remote, but with London weighting removed. Fair enough for those who would otherwise commute in, but harsh to those who live in London and have to pay higher prices for rent etc bur want to work at home. It's odd how some seem to think that a commute is inevitable, plenty of people work locally even though its not as well paid.

@Themeparklover

I would seek legal advice and show that you have been working for over 6 months in a certain format and your achievements, most companies have adapted by now

There is no legal advice to be had, if management want you back in the office then that's it. If that is your contract, then that's your contract.