What has really changed since Jamie Oliver's school meals?

[UndertheCedartree]

Just wondering really if much has changed. I didn't have DC in 2005. I mean I remember the horrible looking school lunch and my DD's school lunches are a lot better. But I still don't think they are overly healthy and have quite a lot of processed food. My DD is on FSM so I am very grateful for them, of course. Is it mainly a funding issue why they aren't better?

@Valeriekat - thank you for that. Proper in-house cooks and enough money to spend on fresh food would seem an obvious start. Such a shame many were got rid of.

@Spanielstail - it is very sad. Unfortunately calorie for calorie processed food is cheaper, being just one of the issues for low income families. It seems such a vicious circle when these are the very DC that would benefit so much from a healthy lunch.

@PumpkinPie2016 - has the salad bar continued during Covid. As at my DD's school they haven't had it since the 1st Lockdown. They now have the meals brought to the table.

@Essentialironingwater

I was at secondary school between 2002 and 2008. We had always had a salad bar, healthy options and pasta bar. The difference post Jamie was that chips weren't an option apart from on Fridays and they stopped any crisps, chocolate bars etc so all the veg Dodgers swapped to packed lunches or bought crisps etc from the corner shop before school instead! Funnily enough looking back though chocolate bars weren't allowed you could still buy a whopping great big fresh fried chocolate doughnut filled with choc sauce!

Sometimes the 'healthy' rules don't make a lot of sense!

I think they make the cakes/flapjacks to have low sugar probably some whole grain etc. But for a child it is just a cake. And if they have cake regularly at school I think it can then be hard to understand why your parents don't allow you cake regularly at home/lead to DC asking for cake at home. And marketing knows all about pester power!

@Luckystar1

My school dinners in both primary and secondary school were absolutely amazing. All home cooked and healthy.

At primary we had no choice, it was what it was, but it was always lovely.

Now there seems to be contracted out dining, all local schools get the same shite. They get a small choice, which I think results in the majority of the children choosing the less healthy option daily.

Heavily carb laden. And very random concoctions. Pizza and mashed potatoes is one I hear of often.

But… I’m still too lazy to make lunches daily so, pizza and mash it is

Pizza and mash...wtf?! I just looked and on pizza day they get potato wedges and sweetcorn.

My DC have similar options at school as home really. Veg, fruit or a small serving of dessert, something starchy and something with protein. Sometimes it's curry or a pasta bake or a roast dinner, other days it's fish in batter or pizza. It's not the best or worst, and when you have fussy kids I'm glad they are fed and able to concentrate on their lessons. If you think the purpose of school melas is to teach healthy eating it's not great, but when you consider we live in a country where children are fed from food banks and fair share programmes and holiday vouchers, that kids have a hot square meal they find palatable can only be a good thing. Jamie's middle class foodie stuff is great in theory, but it doesn't really relate to the lived experience of many families with children in UK. I remember Jamie having recipes using bread which is past its best, well cheap bread goes mouldy not stale, and a lot of people I know keep their bread in the freezer anyway (myself included) as we can't afford to waste any.

Jamie Oliver might have been well intentioned but to me it always felt patronising and paternalistic.

@Heckythump1

My daughter has just finished reception.... she's loved school dinners! Her school seem to do reasonably healthy meals and a nice variety of things.... the only thing she's not mad about is Fish and Chip Friday... every sodding week... surely there's alternative fish based meals they could do if they want to stick with the traditional fish on a Friday thing!

Yes, it would be nice to have more variety. At my DD's school on Friday they do breaded fish one week and the other fish fingers (which is the same thing in a different shape!!) Then the other choices are meat sausage/Quorn one Friday and the other breaded chicken or veggie nuggets all served with chips and ice-cream for dessert every Friday.

@Peanutsandchilli

Since covid has prevented kids from eating in the hall, all our school meals have been grab bags that they can eat in the classroom, so there's been nothing hot that hasn't been easily transportable. School doesn't have a kitchen either, so they always have to ship it from another school. It's always pizza on a Monday, then, for the rest of the week, a selection of sausage roll, quiche, paninis, pasty type items, breakfast wraps, fish finger butties or something similar, jacket potato with tuna or cheese, or a sandwich. They'll get a piece of fruit, veg sticks, a yoghurt and a cookie/cake with it.

The meals were so much better pre-covid, although, admittedly, did contain a lot of chips.

The cookie/cake does seem unnecessary with the other items. Sounds similar to what my DD's school have at after-school care for tea.

For KS1 (universal fsm) I estimate that I throw about 75% of the veg/salad in the bin.

Doesn't surprise me. Ds (13) says that loads of the kids in his year who have packed lunches just open their lunch box and throw the sandwiches, fruit and any vegetable items straight in the bin and just eat the crisps, biscuits or any processed stuff like Pepperami etc! Apparently if anyone has an apple, it usually gets pinched and thrown at people.

@MisgenderedSwan - is that in Infants? My DD also had fruit and veg at break but in Juniors they have to bring their own snack and it becomes harder. I just don't think DC need cake or flapjack every day. The amount of exercise they need to burn off those kinds of foods is huge! I also think if the DC have a satisfying lunch then fruit for dessert is fine and giving them much needed fibre and vitamins. As you say you compensate with lots of fruit and veg for dinner but not all DC will be getting that.

@spartanthehorse

I worked at one of the schools used on his programme for the pilot scheme. The school changed the menu back to over processed, fatty foods as soon as he left because apparently the children were too hungry. I have worked at schools with amazing food though. Not at all impressed with my son's (reception) - usually burger and chips, chicken nuggets and chips or pasta.

If some schools can do amazing food why can't they all, I wonder?

@MorvaanReed

I do a mix of things in a Primary school. Recently I've been supervising the lunch hall.

The food meets the standards required eg puddings are sweetened with fruit, fried food once a week etc.

For KS1 (universal fsm) I estimate that I throw about 75% of the veg/salad in the bin and a varying amount of the protein/carbs - I'd say on average 20%, mostly the known choosy eaters (I'm not privy to all the children's info so don't presume that all choosy eaters are NT) and a small number of very slow eaters. We do our best to encourage the children to eat but we have a strict half an hour for them to eat and leave so we can clean up and get ready for KS2.

Children crying over a plate of food they don't like and won't touch happens (don't talk to me about the day they put stuffing in the roast chicken roll) with the child usually telling us that they told their parents/carers they don't like it (take that with whatever size pinch of salt you choose). We are not going to try and force a child to eat and the school doesn't ask us to but we do praise trying new things and having a go.

Since the portions are calculated to feed the average needs of a child anywhere from 4 to 11 - the kitchen staff do skew this a bit - plus choosiness (whatever it's cause), some of the children are undoubtably hungry by the time they go home and some when they enter the classroom for afternoon lessons.

We throw much less food away for KS2 as most of them only have it because they like it. I used to be in favour of FSM for all but now I think, on balance, I am not in favour of universal FSM for even KS1. I do belive the threshold for FSM should be greatly lowered so more can get it or perhaps a voucher scheme that can be used for school meals or food shopping.

Whatever we do, with all the good intentions in the world, schools trying to feed 100s of children may not be best placed to get individual children to eat at all, never mind healthily. I say this a someone who got FSM as a teen and was profoundly greatful for them as they were almost my only source of vegetables.

Ah, don't like the thought of a little one crying over their dinner I don't think we shomake them eat it either. One thing my DD hates is when the baked beans are over the other food. She barely eats if that is the case. Apparently they quietly gives her an extra piece of fruit when that happens, which is nice. It is a complex situation that I'm sure has many sides to it. It would be nice for the DC to do more education around food - being introduced to different foods, different textures in a fun and unthreatening way.

@TigersandTeddybears

My DC have similar options at school as home really. Veg, fruit or a small serving of dessert, something starchy and something with protein. Sometimes it's curry or a pasta bake or a roast dinner, other days it's fish in batter or pizza. It's not the best or worst, and when you have fussy kids I'm glad they are fed and able to concentrate on their lessons. If you think the purpose of school melas is to teach healthy eating it's not great, but when you consider we live in a country where children are fed from food banks and fair share programmes and holiday vouchers, that kids have a hot square meal they find palatable can only be a good thing. Jamie's middle class foodie stuff is great in theory, but it doesn't really relate to the lived experience of many families with children in UK. I remember Jamie having recipes using bread which is past its best, well cheap bread goes mouldy not stale, and a lot of people I know keep their bread in the freezer anyway (myself included) as we can't afford to waste any.

Jamie Oliver might have been well intentioned but to me it always felt patronising and paternalistic.

Yes, it certainly didn't hit the mark, it seems. My DD's school lunch sounds similar and as you say not amazingly healthy but not terrible either. All children and even more so those on FSM having something they will eat is clearly an important aim. I think any changes should be small and gradual. I guess that was in part why JO failed just coming in and completely changing the meals.

@lazylinguist - oh dear! Not quite the same but I do find the playtime snack difficult as if you send a piece of fruit and they don't eat it it ends up too battered to be eaten later or the next day. That's when the penguin bars or little malt loafs start creeping in!

Ours were pretty good, dull and old-fashioned in my opinion (stews, roasts, fish on Fridays etc) but good quality and with the necessary fruit and veg.

Standards have gone down the drain since Covid (don't know if Covid is the cause): pizza with chips, hot dogs, burgers etc in a disposable cardboard box. Never fruit, vegetables once or twice a week: "mummy I got 6 sweetcorn today" or "there was a bowl with cucumber for everyone". It sounds and looks disgusting. Mine are both on sandwiches now.

So not sure how much has changed!

Literally nothing except his bank balance

Turkey twizzlers replaced with low quality chicken sausages. Not sure there’s much difference, both are highly processed cheap meat.

It depends.
My school had a fabulous choice of well-cooked food (e.g. roast pork - you got a piece of crackling), plus salads etc.
It's gone to pot since lockdown though.
Food is served in compostable containers, and is mostly what I'd call junk (high carb, no real veg except in the roast dinners, no salad in the wraps). The portion sizes are smaller too.
I'm waiting to see what happens when we're back to 'normal'.....

Yes exactly dietary changes should be small and gradual. Children are brilliant at changing their diets for the better if it's managed properly. Introducing new foods slowly and never when they are hungry (there should always be something they already like on their plate too). You make the change to sudden and radical and people rebel against it, kids don't want courgetti with lentil bolognese when they are used to spag bol. But you can add a little bit of courgette or some lentils to the spag Bol, you can half the amount of spaghetti, and add some broccoli or peas. You can add some cheese for calcium, or reduce the amount of cooking oil used or switch to a better cooking oil to reduce omega 6s.

I don't think Jamie O was based in the needs or feeling of the children or their parents at all. It was his idea of healthy eating. And there is no perfect "healthy diet" we all have different nutritional needs. Kids need a lot more starchy food and fat in their diet than most adults because they are growing and on the go more. And food is not just sustenance is it? It's about family, community, tradition, religion, comfort and celebration. It's a way to connect and share and bring people together. Food should not be upsetting for children, it shouldn't be a shock and totally different from the options at home. It shouldn't be terrifying and alien to them.

Balanced meals with plenty of veg are marvellous in theory. But no use if the kids don’t eat them. Especially the FSM kids who need as many calories as possible. There needs to be a balance between getting micronutrients into kids and getting any food/calories into the picky eaters and deprived kids who will struggle most to learn anyway and will struggle even more if faced with a broccoli bake for lunch rather than nuggets and wedges with beans which has a decent chance of being eaten.

My dc primary have a varied menu. Always a full roast mid week, curry, pasta, mince and dumplings, toad in the hole etc. Fridays are chip days, usually with fish or homemade pizza. All food is made fresh on site. Jacket potatos with various fillings and salad available everyday as well as vegetarian options. It's a small school with just one class per year group.

The meals became bisarre combinations. I was at school in JOs reign. The food went from normal combinations (though not ideal from a health perspective), to every meal involving mash and cucumber.

This odd combination still continues. My DC are eligible for FSM, but take a packed lunch as I remain unconvinced that pasta, mash and cucumber is a balanced meal. Nor is pizza, mash and 3 slices of cucumber. Half a potato and 3 slices of cucumber. Just mash and cucumber (they run out of the 'main' bit that goes with the cucumber and mash frequently. Occasionally the cucumber is replaced by broccoli, but it's grey and an unusual texture for broccoli, so my DC will not eat it (nor would I tbf).

I'm trying to think back to schools I've worked in where the uptake of the 'good' (keeping it simple) stuff was impressive. One was the first school where the majority of the kids would be going home to some sort of traditional home cooking be it south Asian, Carribbean, African, or traditional British stodge. So having a choice of similar at lunchtime wasn't off-putting.

The other was when I worked at an SEMH school and apart from the ones whose medication dulled their appetites, and the ones with sensory/ARFID type of issues who had an individual diet, they ate most things. It was a variation around curry, roast dinner, pizza, something breaded, pasta each week but it was 'junk' food done well, produced in-house. Predictable, safe, tasty. Oh and no packed lunches allowed (except for when needed as above). The fruit bowls always got emptied either before or after pudding.

The other schools did junk, badly and healthy, badly. Luckily in both cases they did good sandwiches and jacket potatoes, and one had a salad bar for while which was incredibly popular but often not on as it was too much of a pain for the catering staff to manage (I wish I hadn't heard that from the horse's mouth but I did so there we go).

Actually I think I'm being unkind in saying the SEMH school served junk, it wasn't really that most days. Breaded day was borderline and it was always chips on a Friday but when balanced against curry, pasta and roast day those kids got a good diet overall.

@Lovelydovey

Turkey twizzlers replaced with low quality chicken sausages. Not sure there’s much difference, both are highly processed cheap meat.

Yuck