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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

That £4m on Latin lessons should be spent on a modern foreign language

487 replies

newnortherner111 · 31/07/2021 19:58

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/latin-state-schools-england-williamson-b1894202.html

Latest idea from the Education Secretary. Given that the Prime Minister has been in a Catholic church at least once, did he not tell Gavin Williamson that the Catholic Mass is usually in the local language now, and has been for over 50 years?

Encouraging learning Spanish for example would be much better and actually have a use in real life.

OP posts:
lazylinguist · 01/08/2021 16:54

It doesn't start at secondary. It is compulsory in English primary schools at Key Stage 2. However, there is no set curriculum and it's often taught by tye normal class teacher, not a linguist.

ErrolTheDragon · 01/08/2021 17:18

Isn't there a move to remove as much Latin as possible from the law moving forwards ?

It's rather astonishing this wasn't done around the same time as English translations of the Bible, and the creating of the Book of Common prayer. Surely it's centuries overdue?

Sunbeam61278 · 01/08/2021 17:20

I heard some European schools are offering Mandarin

Butchyrestingface · 01/08/2021 17:23

Seen quite a few people online expressing the view that British Sign Language would be a more useful language to learn. Esp with moves to bring to introduce a GCSE in the subject.

lazylinguist · 01/08/2021 17:29

I must say, I think teaching Mandarin is a bit daft too really. As has been repeatedly pointed out, it's hard enough to get kids to a decent standard of spoken French or Spanish. The uptake is often low at GCSE and very low to non-existent at A Level. How many will make it to a vaguely competent standard in a language with a different script and virtually no similarities to any language they've ever even heard irl? And what proportion will ever use it? At least people who don't use their French or Spanish for a career might get to use a bit of it on holiday if they want to. Or choose to brush it up on Duolingo and use it later in life. What proportion of Brits go on holiday to China?

lazylinguist · 01/08/2021 17:30

Don't get me wrong btw - I'd absolutely love to learn Mandarin. But I'm a mad-keen linguist, and even I wouldn't have any use for it!

KeflavikAirport · 01/08/2021 17:32

Not to mention that the Confucius institute offering Mandarin lessons in schools is well dodgy: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Confucius_Institutes

KeflavikAirport · 01/08/2021 17:34

It just seems madness to me that we have literally millions of bilingual kids in the country already and that resource is going wholly untapped. You could do so much to foster language awareness using heritage languages kids already speak.

ErrolTheDragon · 01/08/2021 17:43

What proportion of Brits go on holiday to China?

However, it might be worth asking what proportion of tourists to the U.K. might in future be Chinese, and whether mandarin might be useful for some people in the tourist industry. Though chances are most who visit the U.K. will have some level of English.
Nevertheless... Latin is always going to be to a large extent an elite, academic subject. Whereas functional MFLs may be more useful to those aiming at travel and tourism.

Intercity225 · 01/08/2021 17:49

A better solution would be to use the money to make class sizes smaller, buy back sports fields (sold off by the tories), give ALL children exciting extra-curricular activities. Sod Latin.

All that for £4 million?

ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia · 01/08/2021 17:51

@KeflavikAirport

It just seems madness to me that we have literally millions of bilingual kids in the country already and that resource is going wholly untapped. You could do so much to foster language awareness using heritage languages kids already speak.
Indeed some parts of the UK is multilingual but I think as much as the Welsh and a few Scots use Welsh, Celtic and Scots it is not very prevalent given the dominance of English particularly as the American variant is widely used internationally too. Cornish has pretty much disappeared as far as I understand. These heritage languages are important but tend to be forgotten these days among Brits.
woodhill · 01/08/2021 17:56

@ErrolTheDragon

What proportion of Brits go on holiday to China?

However, it might be worth asking what proportion of tourists to the U.K. might in future be Chinese, and whether mandarin might be useful for some people in the tourist industry. Though chances are most who visit the U.K. will have some level of English.
Nevertheless... Latin is always going to be to a large extent an elite, academic subject. Whereas functional MFLs may be more useful to those aiming at travel and tourism.

It is a difficult language to learn but a good idea as well. I know the local school introduced it a while backs - language college status
PippiStocking · 01/08/2021 18:10

[quote KeflavikAirport]Not to mention that the Confucius institute offering Mandarin lessons in schools is well dodgy: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Confucius_Institutes[/quote]
Chinese friends have expressed similar concerns about these institutes – namely that they are politically motivated and organise Chinese students to further the Chinese government‘s agenda. Similar organisations include government-supported music and sports networks.

An example they described was paying groups of Chinese music students to go and provide a presence at counter-protests on Chinese state visits, etc., where human rights demonstrations might be taking place.

WitheredfromtheLake · 01/08/2021 18:11

I was fortunate enough to learn Latin at my comprehensive school.
(Civis Romanus, Mentor, Poeta fabulam narrat....)

That was the basis of my love for languages; I studied it at uni and went on to teach a MFL.
I would love every child to have the opportunity to learn Latin (not just in 40 schools!)
I don't know how well co-opting existing MFL teachers to do this would work. Teachers are mainly overworked already, and Latin takes some application to learn.
Also, everything in education needs funding at the moment (SEND, school meals etc).
Sadly I think this is an attention-grabbing gesture by a government which doesn't give two figs for foreign languages.

aracena · 01/08/2021 18:11

‘Knowing Spanish, French, Italian or any other Romance language gives you a general awareness of Latin anyway.’

‘Or, reversing the mirror, learning Latin gives you an appreciation of 3 other languages simultaneously ....’

But knowing any Romance language gives you a general awareness of any other, including Latin. I am fluent in French and Spanish but can pretty much understand the gist of Portuguese, Italian, Galician and Catalán as well as understand Latin inscriptions on gravestones. So really, why bother with Latin when there’s no actual speaking involved. Unless you want to specialise in Classics, of course. But that’s another question.

A previous poster has said it’s not an either / or proposition. Unfortunately, though, it often is. I have seen many schools have to choose between teaching French, Spanish or German, for instance. This is why German teaching is sadly in the decline, despite being the language businesses most request.

PippiStocking · 01/08/2021 18:19

@WitheredfromtheLake

I was fortunate enough to learn Latin at my comprehensive school. (Civis Romanus, Mentor, Poeta fabulam narrat....)

That was the basis of my love for languages; I studied it at uni and went on to teach a MFL.
I would love every child to have the opportunity to learn Latin (not just in 40 schools!)
I don't know how well co-opting existing MFL teachers to do this would work. Teachers are mainly overworked already, and Latin takes some application to learn.
Also, everything in education needs funding at the moment (SEND, school meals etc).
Sadly I think this is an attention-grabbing gesture by a government which doesn't give two figs for foreign languages.

Agree
ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia · 01/08/2021 18:25

Chinese is more flexible not just because of the number of majority natives who use it in mainland China and the Chinese nations of Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore and Macao but it is also used by Japanese.

There is additionally the global Chinese diaspora located far and wide as well as increasingly more global Chinese middle class luxury consumers and holiday makers. London (and Bicester) luxury retail is much dependent on this trade.

The only issue with Chinese is the spoken form as although Mandarin is the standard and most spoken lingua franca uniting standardised form - most Chinese will speak their original mother tongue Chinese dialect as well as Mandarin.

Overseas Chinese tend to speak their own dialect first such as Cantonese and Hakka and may not necessarily speak Mandarin fluently.

However the written form of which there is the traditional full Chinese characters as used by all Chinese (and Japanese) and the mainland Chinese only simplified reduced shorter hand character form. Those who use the traditional full written form can easily understand the simplified but not necessarily the other way round.

The Japanese tend to use Chinese for names and their own two separate Japanese written forms which is a very different written form.

Of the other useful international non European business (rather than tourism) languages - Arabic is useful as it connects so many nations too.

All languages including Latin is more ideal than just English and indeed the level of English in some schools is arguably worst than those in places like the Netherlands for instance!

Sanguinesuzy · 01/08/2021 18:28

Meanwhile btechs are quietly being abolished for T'levels......

Newrumpus · 01/08/2021 18:28

@noblegiraffe

People talking about state kids having the same opportunities as private ones.

Do you think it’s Latin that gets private kids into elite universities and that with a bit more Latin for working class kids, the playing field will be level? Confused

Of course not. Private school kids have many advantages. This is one of them. It isn’t just about getting into elite universities. It is about holding your own when you get there. It is about levelling one part of the playing field and not holding back working class kids by denying them opportunities. By all means offer sports coaching too (though in my experience talented potential sportsmen/women often get picked up outside of school). Doing so does not diminish the value of Latin for some state school pupils and that is why it should be offered where possible.
Sanguinesuzy · 01/08/2021 18:29

Rather level 3 btechs.

noblegiraffe · 01/08/2021 18:37

Disadvantaged kids aren't being denied access to elite universities because they never studied Latin where private school kids who did study Latin find open doors.

This is cargo cult thinking.

noblegiraffe · 01/08/2021 18:41

Sam Freedman's take.

The BTEC story is huge for secondary schools and colleges and yet very little coverage.

That £4m on Latin lessons should be spent on a modern foreign language
Newrumpus · 01/08/2021 18:41

@noblegiraffe

Disadvantaged kids aren't being denied access to elite universities because they never studied Latin where private school kids who did study Latin find open doors.

This is cargo cult thinking.

Can you explain what you mean (if you are referring to my posts)?
noblegiraffe · 01/08/2021 18:47

Not sure if you are the along the same lines of thinking but there was a previous poster who suggested that if disadvantaged kids studied Latin, as they do in private schools, they'd have better access to elite universities.

But it's not the lack of Latin holding them back, is it? It's not the addition of Latin that is boosting the private school kids.

You know what a cargo cult is? Where the islanders tried to mimic a plane runway as closely as possible in the hope that a plane would land there?

ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia · 01/08/2021 18:51

What would be ideal is instead of an insulting £4m after £40bn wasted in corrupt governmental doggy private deals with mates for things that are not only unfit for purpose when critical in an emergency pandemic but costs thousands of lives that could have been saved. £4m is hardly an interior make over let alone a new boat or private jet rebranding paint job as possibly dreamt up by the government marketing guru - yes the latest wife perhaps as they are all on the take and think a splash of Latin is going to cut it! Ventilation in schools for some health and safety would be an ideal investment. This is done overseas so why not here apart from the reverse ideology to create school incubation super spreading hubs. £4m is pocket change compared to the corruption and wasted tax payer public borrowing to build white elephant Nightingale hospitals with no staff nor equipment and not much required new schools and teachers for the next generations who will be paying back the furlough etc and cleaning up this government’s mess when they are long gone after using the once in a lifetime pandemic opportunity for self enrichment when others are suffering.