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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

That £4m on Latin lessons should be spent on a modern foreign language

487 replies

newnortherner111 · 31/07/2021 19:58

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/latin-state-schools-england-williamson-b1894202.html

Latest idea from the Education Secretary. Given that the Prime Minister has been in a Catholic church at least once, did he not tell Gavin Williamson that the Catholic Mass is usually in the local language now, and has been for over 50 years?

Encouraging learning Spanish for example would be much better and actually have a use in real life.

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 01/08/2021 12:37

It may be that the practical way ahead for some of the more niche subjects, for which there can never realistically be enough teachers, money or timetable slots, is to put resources into developing good MOOCs, accessible to people of any age who are interested. How about sixth formers all get a range of tasters and then sign up to at least one (but as many as they want) good MOOCs? I'd have liked eg 'classical civilisation' along with my 4 stem A levels.

Clydesider · 01/08/2021 12:38

The replies in this thread have shown me a whole lot about the core users of Mumsnet.

noblegiraffe · 01/08/2021 12:40

They go in to the private sector because that's where they currently teach classics

Yes, the government paying thousands to train teachers for the private sector is an odd use of taxpayers money, isn’t it?

This money doesn’t appear to be intending to damage that supply of state-sponsored teachers to the private sector as it is intending to take existing state teachers away from the subjects they qualified in instead.

ErrolTheDragon · 01/08/2021 12:42

@Clydesider

The replies in this thread have shown me a whole lot about the core users of Mumsnet.
I doubt we particularly represent any 'core' - just the small subset who give a toss either way about a thread with Latin in its title.
luckylavender · 01/08/2021 12:47

I did Latin at A Level in a State school and it's a useful discipline. Not as useful as funding the basic curriculum, SEN support, maintenance, equipment, modern language teaching etc though.

newnortherner111 · 01/08/2021 12:47

@ErrolTheDragon I did a MOOC last year on Covid contact tracing, and found it really useful (I am not in the medical profession, but there were some valuable skills in it). I agree it may have a value for subjects rarely taught in schools.

OP posts:
KeflavikAirport · 01/08/2021 12:51

I, too, am loving the thought of chemists with three science A levels floundering in their degrees for a lack of Latin.

Iamnotminterested · 01/08/2021 12:51

DD (in year 8 at a state comp) does Latin after school and intends to study it for GCSE.

aracena · 01/08/2021 12:56

As an MFL and Linguistics teacher in 16-19 education, I cannot see how promoting Latin at this precise moment is helpful. As @noblegiraffe has pointed out, one of the biggest issues in education is the withdrawal of funding for BTECs which is going to damage the educational outcomes of many vulnerable students. Not to mention the need to help schools and colleges cope with the fall out of all the COVID disruption.

I am all for promoting languages, obviously. As many have pointed out, learning a language teaches logic, awareness of other cultures, an understanding of your own language, hard work etc. But I fail to see why Latin would be a better alternative to another Romance language where you can actually communicate with real people. Knowing Spanish, French, Italian or any other Romance language gives you a general awareness of Latin anyway. People who claim that people in these countries all speak English have clearly not much knowledge of these countries! I am married to a Spaniard and very few of our friends - all professionals- speak more than a few badly pronounced words of English.

MFL teaching in the UK is hard work, under-funded like most subjects and it is increasingly hard to recruit good teachers for post-Brexit. More funding to support teaching existing languages would be more useful I think. I’m not saying Latin shouldn’t be taught - it has many advantages. But to be promoted instead of other more useful languages at a time of huge underfunding of education, seems a political gimmick aimed at Tory voters rather than anything else.

NoYOUbekind · 01/08/2021 12:59

@luckylavender

I did Latin at A Level in a State school and it's a useful discipline. Not as useful as funding the basic curriculum, SEN support, maintenance, equipment, modern language teaching etc though.
This.

I studied Latin (although I think it was called classical studies) as an extra option at my state school and really loved the history/logic/societal elements of the course, not much of the Latin stuck but that doesn't matter - it was a great wee course. However, it ended not long after my time at school because they couldn't replace the teacher after he retired.

It's a good subject.

But all the other stuff needs to be fixed first, surely, before we focus on enriching the curriculum further.

Newrumpus · 01/08/2021 13:00

There are lots to issues in education - lack of specialist provision, class sizes, ofsted etc but none of this means that working class pupils should not get the opportunity to study Latin/Classics so that they can compete with their privately educated peers if they so choose.

KeflavikAirport · 01/08/2021 13:05

They can take it ab initio at university if they are interested.

ItsSnowJokes · 01/08/2021 13:05

When we have children leaving school with undiagnosed SEN, not being able to read or write properly, schools not being able to afford even the most basic of supplies this money should not he spent on Latin lessons.

When we have the basics of the curriculum up and running successfully then you can add these vanity projects in.

itssquidstella · 01/08/2021 13:11

@TheHateIsNotGood sym is a Greek prefix, not Latin. It's from the Greek συν, meaning 'with'. The Latin equivalent is con-.

noblegiraffe · 01/08/2021 13:12

What is really needed to allow working class kids to compete with their private school counterparts is a qualified maths teacher. They're in short supply in the state system.

itssquidstella · 01/08/2021 13:13

@Maggiesfarm bellum is a noun (declines); amo is a verb (conjugates) Smile

Sunbeam61278 · 01/08/2021 13:14

I have a comprehensive school qualification in French & Latin
I really enjoyed learning about the historical & social aspects of Romans & Greeks
I went on a school trip to Greece which included; Athens, Olympia, Delhi, Mycenae

I have visited also Pompei

I continue to have an interest in history, but I have found that there are many other world cultures & languages that are not taught in school. Obviously, there is a time limit for school education.

I have never used my Latin qualification in my working life. Other than it has provided me with a broad educational background

CinnamonJellyBeans · 01/08/2021 13:14

It won't cost that much to teach the smart kids Latin, one hour a week for a teacher, some books, exam entry fee.

Brainwave89 · 01/08/2021 13:17

No. Latin is a useful language and a good base for a number of European languages. It also has a large element of logic to it, which means it is useful for people who go on to study coding languages. This is as well as the language being elegant and worth learning.

Getawaywithit · 01/08/2021 13:20

It won't cost that much to teach the smart kids Latin, one hour a week for a teacher, some books, exam entry fee

How many qualified Latin teachers do you k ow who only want one hour a week’s timetable?

Why only smart kids? Why don’t all kids deserve the same opportunities in life?

What are you removing from the timetable so Latin can be taught? You’ll need to justify that answer to a wide range of parents with a wide range of backgrounds,

noblegiraffe · 01/08/2021 13:21

@CinnamonJellyBeans

It won't cost that much to teach the smart kids Latin, one hour a week for a teacher, some books, exam entry fee.
£100,000 per school seems quite a lot to me.
ErrolTheDragon · 01/08/2021 13:23

It also has a large element of logic to it, which means it is useful for people who go on to study coding languages.

Not nearly as useful as learning logic and coding languages. The idea you might learn Latin as a precursor to coding is very amusing.
I rather suspect the amount of relevant logic gleaned from Latin might well be equalledto by that attained by understanding how a knitting pattern works. Grin

CinnamonJellyBeans · 01/08/2021 13:25

Well, the assumption from some posters appear to be that we should not divert money from SEN kids, so one can only assume from these posts that they do not believe that SEN kids are included?

You could get a Latin tutor for £50-60 quid per week. They could even deliver online. The smart interested kids could do it on a voluntary basis after school. They could self-assess their work and do further independent learning without 1:1 help, so very cost-effective

CinnamonJellyBeans · 01/08/2021 13:26

100k? what teachers cost 100k?

noblegiraffe · 01/08/2021 13:27

Cinnamon the £4 million for 40 schools to teach Latin works out at £100,000 per school.