Homeopathy vs home remedies

[suspiria777]

After a long time reading on MN and elsewhere, and just general chats to people at work or at weddings or whatever, I've come to the conclusion that a significant proportion of people don't really understand what homeopathy is, and think of it as roughly synonymous with 'natural medicine' or 'home remedies'.

Am i mistaken?

I can't think what else would explain the large proportion of otherwise seemingly sensible people who discuss homeopathy as if it actually has good scientific evidence base. Surely people don't back it if they realise it is just water and woo woo?

What do you think?

The master speaks:

A friend of mine child has had severe eczema for years and tried everything from the gp. Homeopathy has improved the skin so much. I never believed in it but I have seen the difference it has made to this child

You seem to think I’m some kind of fuckwit that hands over bank details just because I am open minded! Really!?

It was a joke, but also a demonstration that obviously you do think about how things might work in that situation, and that you wouldn't believe me telling you to forget everything you know about how e.g. financial transactions work just because someone tells you it's different this time and might benefit you.

@Parttimemostofthetime

A friend of mine child has had severe eczema for years and tried everything from the gp. Homeopathy has improved the skin so much. I never believed in it but I have seen the difference it has made to this child

The thing is, my DD had severe eczema. But like many children she eventually grew out of it.

People believe in homeopathy because many things do get better anyway. Which is why you need scientific studies to show effectiveness.

@Parttimemostofthetime, what does she use? Is it homeopathic or herbal?

My sister bangs on about homeopathy on the basis that the Queen swears by it and it has the approval of her doctors.
I totally believe that our knowledge on some things isn't complete. We used to laugh about meditation. I had an hour to fill of an afternoon, so did crystal meditation. My meditation became deeper etc with some crystals. I'm interested in the placebo effect, because it does show that our mental health is connected to our physical health. In other words, we can heal ourselves to some degree. Which is why I don't think that Reiki should be dismissed. But as said the amounts used in homeopathy couldn't make a difference.

@TriciaMcMillan that Dara O'Briain clip nails it. Brilliant!

So is arnica homeopathic or herbal? The latter right?

I thought homeopathic meant herbal remedies like chamomile or arnica etc in the form of a cream/paste or those teeny tiny sugar pills. Is homeopathy something different? I've never heard of diluted water

Yes arnica is herbal.

Homeopathy is basically water at exorbitant prices. Money for old rope.

@Patapouf, arnica, like aloe vera is herbal. It's important that a distinction is made. How we develop some medicines is by looking at the properties of plants and then recreating that in the lab. That way we can used a concentrated or cheaper, easier to get version than directly using plants. Herbal remedies do work and taking in those properties via our diet is nutrition, which is important.

The taking the piss out of willow earlier in the thread was insulting to indigenous people. Say exactly what you mean. Smoking is used as a way of cleansing because when water is short it kills the bacteria on the skin. Some tribes didn't wash with water, they used and still use, smoking.

@Parttimemostofthetime

A friend of mine child has had severe eczema for years and tried everything from the gp. Homeopathy has improved the skin so much. I never believed in it but I have seen the difference it has made to this child

My child grew out of it. In just a couple of years it was gone. No homeopathy.

@MissTrip82

What nonsense!
He actually saw patients for homeopathy through the NHS and worked at the homeopathic hospital here in Bristol.
He was an excellent doctor.

I personally think the big distinction lies not with the “medicine” itself… lots of people put trust in lots of things with no scientific basis - whether it’s rubbing mustard on the soles of your feet, mama’s chicken soup or faith based healing such as reike or laying on of hands etc. I do wonder if it is partly the comfort/sense of doing something/stress reduction element that helps people (or reduces the neuroticism of pet owners in that case).

The problem comes when people reject or are advised to reject appropriate proven treatment from qualified medical professionals and go with unproven or inappropriate treatment. This could be “woo” stuff, it could be trying to cure cancer with a paleo diet. It could even involve legitimate treatments which could turn out to be harmful in the wrong usage (eg deep tissue massage in a lymphoma patient).

There are also vulnerable, frightened or ill informed patients/parents/owners who may be suspicious of conventional medicine (eg vaccines, chemo) and would happily latch on to anyone who says - you don’t need that treatment… a b12 supplement and sprinkling lavender oil at midnight works just as well. Until you catch rabies or your cancer spreads.

So I guess this is where the responsibility of the homeopath comes in, it presumably comes very much down to their morals/ethics. Similar to a plastic surgeon who has to navigate the ethics of counselling patients for/against procedures while taking their money. I think a qualified doctor or vet who rejects the basic tenets of evidence based medicine in favour of alternative/woo stuff is not fit to practice. Or who persuades a patient to do one thing against the evidence that another course of treatment would be better. But as an example, the homeopath I know is more likely to take the view… “the homeopathy may help with tension headaches but you need antibiotics for your skin infection.”

There are a lot of unregulated health industries operating, beauticians injecting fillers and nutritionists downloading internet doctorates. I suppose having qualified doctors/vets performing homeopathy does give it more perceived efficacy, but it does also mean practitioners are accountable to professional standards/GMC/RCVS.

[quote Helendee]@MissTrip82

What nonsense!
He actually saw patients for homeopathy through the NHS and worked at the homeopathic hospital here in Bristol.
He was an excellent doctor.[/quote]
And the NHS no longer funds homeopathy because there is no evidence to show that its effective. So he wouldn't be practicing homeopathy through the NHS now

[quote Helendee]@MissTrip82

What nonsense!
He actually saw patients for homeopathy through the NHS and worked at the homeopathic hospital here in Bristol.
He was an excellent doctor.[/quote]
I mean... Harold Shipman actually saw patients trough the NHS and was for a long time regarded as an excellent doctor.

Homeopathy is not a valid medical treatment, and any benefits it has are caused by chance, the natural history of the ailment (i.e. it was going to get better anyway, e.g. a cold) or the placebo effect.

@taliopolis

Yet the NHS is bullying people into having barely tested and seemingly ineffective ‘vaccines’ en masse! 😏

@Helendee

Being an antivaxxer is as dumb as believing in magic water.

The covid vaccine is neither untested nor ineffective.

@thatonehasalittlecar

So you think now.
😄😄

@Helendee - I have a good book recommendation - "Vaxxers" by Sarah Gilbert and Catherine Green. It explains all about their work, including a list of the vaccine ingredients.
"Bullying" is a much misused term, perhaps never more so against a public health system attempting to save lives under significant pressure.

Generally if I meet someone who confesses to using homeopathic medicine I just quietly assume they are a bit stupid.

Science literally demands an open mind which you must change if the evidence changes. Your own feelings, expectations and experiences are irrelevant.

Woo, on the other hand, feeds people a single narrative that exploits people's confirmation bias and dismisses all fact as 'part of the conspiracy'. It's literally the definition of a closed feedback system.

Yet guess which one insists they're 'open-minded'

I swap between finding woo-lovers the most tedious people imaginable because their debate is completely predictable (unlike people who believe in science who will tell you fascinating, new things) and feeling that my life would be duller without them to laugh at.

@coodawoodashooda

I am not a homeopath so wont even try to explain but i guarantee that is incorrect

Haha. 'dO yOuR OwN rEseArCh' - the beloved cry of all conspiracy theorists who have nothing to support their nonsense.

@Helendee

No, so the evidence shows. My thoughts are irrelevant.

Science literally demands an open mind which you must change if the evidence changes. Your own feelings, expectations and experiences are irrelevant.

Woo, on the other hand, feeds people a single narrative that exploits people's confirmation bias and dismisses all fact as 'part of the conspiracy'. It's literally the definition of a closed feedback system.

Great post!

Apparently the placebo effect works for lots of people even when they know it's a placebo. I think some people just benefit from being fussed over and homeopathy fills that gap in a way that meets their needs. But fuck knows how people spin a degree out of magic water.

Placebo effect does work even when people are told it's untrue. However the wording of the study was something like, "here is a pill, it has no active ingredients but some people have found it helps". So not exactly, "this is a placebo, see if it works".

Placebo isn't the only effect of course. There is nocebo, which is why many woo-meisters report additional side effects from the vaccine. White coat syndrome, which makes people ill when they see doctors. And the opposite when the performance of healthcare adds to the effect of drugs. Studies have shown even more effects when they perform more (like giving the pill to someone with thongs).

There is also reversion to the mean, which means you were going to get better anyway but sought help from a woo-idiot when you were at your worst. It's not just placebo.

I know I like my acupuncturist being kind and listening and spending time and checking in. My foot hurts less but also I feel cared for and happy, both very good for pain. And spending an hour basically meditating with needles in (can't talk or move) also helps.