It was child abuse wasn’t it?

[Nc4post99]

NC for this post.

I have a poor relationship with my mother. I’m pretty sure she abused me as a teen, emotionally and physically, i think there was neglect too.
I really could use a second opinion here, am I crazy? Being gaslit? Is what happened actually child abuse? It sounds silly but I dont know anymore. I’m waiting for some counselling to talk all this through and why despite everything I still feel horribly guilty at the thought of going NC with her.

We have limited contact but she expects a lot more and the fact that I can’t give this means I’m the worst person in the world. The reason I feel like I can’t is because of our past, and the fact there is 0 accountability from her for the hurt and pain she caused.

So the backstory: I’m pregnant with dc 2 about 6 months and I have a toddler and there is some important financial and legal paper work (entirely hers not mine) that she wants me to do for her. I’ve not background in these fields so it’s not that I will be lending my expertise, so I asked her why she wants me to do it for her and she says because it’s too stressful and she gets overwhelmed and then she blew up at me. She said how I do nothing for her, and how she tries and tries and how nothing she does is good enough. I told her I’m trying my best but it’s hard, as she abused me as a teen. She laughed in my face. It took me a long time, nearly 15 years to realise this was abuse and I didn’t deserve it. She said because I used to have tantrums and create a scene and run away sometimes on days out (I was primary school age when I did this, about 6, and I get it must have been really scary for my parents and I don’t know what I was thinking, I hardly remember) but because I did those things I deserved it because I was so difficult, it was morally justifiable. I said to her well, all of this happened not at the time but 6+ years later and if this was reported to the police now you’d be in trouble for child abuse. She said well yes now I would, but then it wasn’t child abuse, so it’s fine. But surely if it’s abuse now, it was abuse then? Even if the law and safeguarding was lacking?

(Some of the things that happened to me as a teen (12+ ) for context, verbally- she’d wish me dead often, wish I’d get cancer, wish that she terminated her pregnancy with me, accused me of killing her parents (one had a heart attack and I was asleep 50+ miles away when he died and the other cancer), I was perpetually called a disappointment and compared to my peers as to how much of a failure I was. I was regularly taunted about my weight (from primary school age) and appearance and how ugly I was. I used to go to sleep at night and pray to god that i could die in my sleep so I’d didn’t have to live like it anymore, one day she heard me and then relentlessly taunted me about being crazy, there was this song from the 60s funny farm and she’d play that and sing that. Physically the best thing I could describe would happen would be she’d fly at me in fits of rage kicking, screaming and striking me with the heels of her hands (not clenched fists) the first few times I used to fight back but it only made it go on for longer so I then used to drop to a ball and cover my head. she’d also pulled me downstairs by my hair at times, locked me outside naked in a towel in February, and scratched me to the extent I have scars 15 years later. I had anorexia and depression as a teen and no treatment was ever sought. She also accused me of having an incestuous relationship with my father when he was alive, which was unfounded and disgusting and denigrated his memory)

I also wasn’t a perfect child, I know I was challenging. Eating disorders are tough and I was lost in it for a long time. I used to challenge her opinions on things too, specifically homophobia and she hated that.

God I hope that made sense. Thanks for anyone who’s read and I do appreciate your thoughts and comments xx

That's abuse you've described my lovely and you have quite rightly observed that you didn't deserve any of it. I know it's difficult to accept sometimes but you owe your abuser absolutely nothing. Congratulations on the family you have made, I hope you can heal some of your wounds vicariously through your children (in a healthy way).

What your mother did 'back then' was abuse, plain and simple. The physical abuse you suffered was child cruelty and probably illegal even back then. The emotional abuse is a fuzzier area back then and probably not technically considered abuse (which was wrong). There are plenty of things that were 'legal' back in the day that are criminal now. But just because it wasn't an actual crime back then, that doesn't mean it wasn't immoral or abusive.

A good example is spousal rape. It used to be that a husband 'could not' rape his wife as it was her marital duty to provide sex on demand. Nowadays we know better and it's a crime. In similar ways, much of what might have been considered 'discipline' back then (ie hitting with a belt or other object, slapping the face etc) are now known to be abusive. But those things were always wrong.

I agree with those saying that you need to start by backing away from her with the idea of going NC. Not easy, but combined with therapy or counseling, it's doable.

You poor love. Your mother is one of the worst I've read about on here, and that's saying something. She was definitely, 100% abusive. Please don't have any self-doubt on that. But you can't reason with a narcissist, as they can't take responsibility or believe they're in the wrong.

So sorry that happened to you. Definately abuse.
Cut her out,she doesn't deserve you

No child is perfect all of the time. And any child would be "challenging" growing up in the abusive circumstances you did.

This was NOT your fault. Please don't blame yourself.

Her abuse of you is still ongoing. I would absolutely cut contact and seek counselling in your shoes. I know it can be a hard thing to accept, because we are brought up to think our parents should love us and treat us well. It's beyond horrible to realise this isn't true. But for your own sake, I think you need to extricate yourself from this woman.

It WAS child abuse back then just like it is now. It was never acceptable to treat children that way.
So sorry you had to endure that. X

Thank you for your comments everyone! I really needed to hear it, more than you probably know.

She denies all these things happened or if they did they were deserved so I’m left questioning whether I’m making things up, distorting things and if I’m the toxic one. For the longest time I doubted myself and thought I was the problem. All of this started when my father moved abroad and I got bullied In school- it was too stressful for her. I think because I got bought things / given money (even to this day) and went on holidays that didn’t reconcile with my notions of what an abusive parent relationship was. I also think my age clouded this notion too, i wasn’t a small child getting beaten, i was an (at times mouthy) teen. As a small child she was fine, i remember feeling a lot of pressure to be the best and nothing less and asking her to stop comparing me to other children but there was no physical violence.

I’ve got a lot of work to do on understanding how this relationship has impacted me and the decisions I make so I really hope I can do that with the psychologist.

OP, I would go no contact with this vile woman.
If you can’t do it for your own sake, do it for your children. You don’t want her to start treating them like this too, or poisoning their minds by telling them lies about you.
You really need counselling to help you free yourself from the misplaced fear, sense of obligation, and guilt that her abuse and gaslighting have ingrained in you.
Read the book “Toxic parents” by Susan Forward - it is very helpful for those of us in your circumstances, and lets us see that we never deserved it and were not to blame.
You can have a much happier future, free of the legacy of your toxic childhood, and focus on building a loving family with your own children.
I did this - went no contact when I was pregnant with my first DD - and never regretted it. My abusive parents died 25 years ago, and never met my (now adult) DC. I did not attend the funerals and felt only relief that they were gone.

@Babdoc

We’re limited contact as it is, the pandemic really helped that and took the guilt out of it so she’s never met my eldest, aside from once when she was 6 weeks old. But you’re right, sometimes she dupes me into thinking shes changed and I think I was wrong maybe I am making everything up and twisting things and then glimpses of the old her come out, like yesterday. The legal paper work was probate for my grandmother (her mother) who died intestate a year or so ago. She would be the sole heir and she couldn’t take that I said didn’t know how to do it. We’d never discussed it before and she just turned up at my house with 2 suitcases of old paperwork from the 1930s onwards.

PP mentioned FOG and it makes a lot of sense, i do need to free myself of this because it’s like being haunted. I’m by default a very anxious person and tend to blame myself for a lot of things (fathers death for instance) and I’m sure this is as a result of how I was raised. I have a lot of anger too, towards her, extended family, law enforcement, friends parents and my sibling (who benefitted from me being the ‘bad’ child and often participated in physical ‘discipline’. So I do need to rid myself of all of this baggage as it weighs me down in every sense. I need the therapy to rid myself of the guilt and sense of obligation I feel towards her.

OP, welcome to the club. Can I suggest you inform her that you now need some space given you are pregnant and vulnerable so you will not be in touch. It is an easier option than complete non contact and you don't need any more stress now.
My mum accused me of all sorts of things when I was 9 months pregnant and caused me so much stress. When I reminded her about various examples of her abusive behaviour she either denied or minimised or blamed me for them.
You are allowed to block her and you have no responsibility over her life. You wouldn't believe how great it feels not to worry constantly what else she is going to demand, complain about with regular shouting and stress. Just do it

@Iwonder08

OP, welcome to the club. Can I suggest you inform her that you now need some space given you are pregnant and vulnerable so you will not be in touch. It is an easier option than complete non contact and you don't need any more stress now. My mum accused me of all sorts of things when I was 9 months pregnant and caused me so much stress. When I reminded her about various examples of her abusive behaviour she either denied or minimised or blamed me for them. You are allowed to block her and you have no responsibility over her life. You wouldn't believe how great it feels not to worry constantly what else she is going to demand, complain about with regular shouting and stress. Just do it

She knows I’m pregnant. I’d actually hidden it from her because with my last pregnancy she did very similar to your mum and dumped a load of shit and stress on me constantly so much so it landed in growth restrictions and early delivery. Consultant even wrote ‘familial stress’ as one of the reasons for slowing growth. Ultimately I don’t think she cares because it doesn’t suit her to care.

Going NC right now, where I am emotionally and in the midst of all of this, I think I’d be racked with guilt and constantly questioning myself if I did the right thing. So I’ve got some work to do before I’m there. But thankfully she doesn’t live close to me and dc isn’t exposed to her whilst I work through all this

It’s abuse now and it was abuse then. You didn’t deserve any of that. You deserved to grow up in a loving, secure environment.

I know this has been said up thread but I really want you to understand and believe, it WAS abuse then. I was a teenager in the 90s and told my parents about my friends dad who hit her (not to the extent of the attack you describe) it was taken seriously by authorities, because it WAS abuse. I think perhaps people didn't understand about emotional abuse then though. I really hope you can make sense of it and believe that none of it was your fault. Good luck with counseling x

OP, don’t worry if you don’t yet feel strong enough to go no contact. We all get there at our own pace - I was 33 when I got free.
Work towards it, one step at a time. Remember there is always support here on Mumsnet, specifically on the Stately Homes thread. You will find plenty of fellow survivors of toxic parents, who understand exactly what you are going through, in a way that nobody who had a happy loving childhood possibly can.
Counselling or therapy are very useful, both in giving you a safe place to discuss it, and in validating your view of it as abuse - the therapist will not be gaslighting you, denying and minimising what happened, blaming you for it, as your mother did.
Your experience is commoner than you think, including your sibling joining in the abuse. Toxic mothers often have a favoured “golden child” and a scapegoat, setting the siblings against each other in a “divide and conquer” attempt.
Good luck with your journey, OP. Remember the old cliche - the longest journey starts with a single step. You have taken that first step - you have recognised the abuse and opened up about here. Well done, and keep going!

The Narcissist's Prayer

That didn't happen.
And if it did, it wasn't that bad.
And if it was, that's not a big deal.
And if it is, that's not my fault.
And if it was, I didn't mean it.
And if I did, you deserved it.

Sounds like her, doesn't it?

OP, yes it was abuse. I’m so sorry. She sounds very like my mum was and is - she used to tell us we were a punishment for something evil she must have done in a past life, would smash our rooms up at night etc. She has Borderline Personality Disorder, realising that really helped me. I’d recommend a Google of borderline personality disorder and mothers with borderline personality disorder, I’m sure you’ll recognise a lot of what you read. Oh, and my mum talks of our childhoods either as if it was the Waltons or how awful I was, so yes she is gaslighting you. Sending love, hugs, hand holds and support x

Massive thank you to the poster who posted the stately homes thread, the first page where it says everything an abusive parent says, defines my whole life. It really wasn’t me after all! She does everything listed there and I never knew it was a ‘thing’ that abusers do.

@StrangeLookingParasite verbatim is her to a t.

@Walkerby I had a look at bpd and whilst she was unstable and had fits of rage, it was only really at me, she would get angry with my father (the same sort of venomous anger and lash out physically and verbally but it was never to the same extent, I guess as when push came to shove he would be able to stop her, whereas I couldn’t). Everyone else, including my sibling and her parents she was ‘fine’ with. So basically she was normal, kind even, in every other walk of life consistently. I do think she has narcissistic personality disorder though

Definitely child abuse and would have been classed as it then too I think! So sorry you went through that