To wonder why so many women answered "don't know"

[rAvan]

I am studying politics, and I am particularly interested in different systems operating globally. I was surprised to learn that First past the post, the system we use in General elections is favoured by only one other country in Europe- Belarus.

Yougov conduct research on our electoral system and have been for some time. I was surprised by the gap between men and women's preferance on FPTP and PR, and I wanted to get individual opinions on your views about FPTP vs PR.

Usually cited pros of each:

FPTP- stops coalition governments, keeps extremists out
PR- seats more accuraccurately match votes, voters do not feel their vote is wasted due to safe seats.

I've added the men's one purely for comparison.

There are no wrong answers, I hope as many people as possible giving their opinion!

Ah ha OP!

You see, you need to get into a much more nuanced and evidence-based discussion before you can really spell out what aspects of the two systems even differ much, or are more important, before you can get into which system is better.

Higher evidence threshold, as others have said.

@lottiegarbanzo

I'm not sure people really care about the local MP thing. Plus, it is certainly possible to have a local MP still within PR, for those who do care.

@bumblingbovine49

AV was a compromise agreed between Cameron and Clegg. It was a compromise noone really wanted, Clegg didn't feel it was really PR (and its not) and Cameron didn't want the system to change because, from a purely data point of view, his party has benefitted 66% of the time.
No really campaigned on it or provided proper information to voters. I think the AV referendum was poorly run.

I also think that a lot has changed in 10 years. I wasn't able to vote on AV, but I am old enough to vote now, and no doubt millions others.

Thank you @YesThisIsMe!

Still, what do you really want to know, OP?

Why, and if indeed, so many women don't know which they prefer, or which system do we (MNetters who happened to click on your thread and bother to respond) think is best?

@Lweji

I suppose both really. I want to know which, if either, and I think the reasons follow on from that.

It did start with that somewhat binary question but people have provided really interesting opinions and I am enjoying the conversation! I'm sorry, I'm probably not making things clearer!

I’m not sure if FPTP v PR is the right (or only) question to ask about the U.K., actually. I think a more pressing problem at the moment is the power of the government specifically and the HoC more generally. The fact that the Lords now have no absolute veto and diminishing public credibility is a big concern for me. It leaves our political system terribly vulnerable to populism and capture by pushy lobbyists and shouty interest groups. A properly functioning second chamber ought to have been able to moderate the Brexit referendum bill and should also have contributed more usefully to managing the withdrawal process, especially given that the opposition seemed paralysed by it. (I’m not saying it ought to have stopped us leaving the EU, before I get jumped on, just that it could have helped by overseeing the conditions set for the referendum and withdrawal more than it did). As it is, the legal courts ended up getting involved, and I don’t know how healthy that is.
There are a lot of smaller issues where a strong, respected Lords could help to protect the rights of minorities or overlooked areas — rural constituencies and interests in particular have been poorly served for decades, and will suffer further as the Tories refocus on the urban issues of the majority of Red Wall seats.

@warmandtoasty2day

jog right on with the fashion and shite t.v some of us have brains.

So those who like fashion and easy watching television are thick? Nice.

What is your basis for saying that people don't care about the local MP thing? When I've discussed this topic with people IRL it has definitely been a factor. Especially when people have lived in an area for a while and got to know their MP. Enough people do vote person not party in some constituencies, for it to make a difference to the result.

You seem to be telling us why you think PR is best. That's a very different thing from seeking to understand other people's perspectives, or their answers to pollsters.

I'd vote if there was PR.

Well, I'm a woman and I'd probably say I don't know in answer to this question. That isn't because I'm uninterested or uninformed. It's because I think it's complex and neither system is without flaws.

On balance, I prefer the concept of PR because it's more representative, but I do worry about the potential for more extremist groups to succeed via that route. Perhaps that makes me anti-democratic but that's how I feel.

@lottiegarbanzo

I posted above that I believe that a PR system would force parties to negotiate and compromise and that would be beneficial for our discourse as a country, as things are too polarised at the moment, and there appears to be no room for nuance. I'm not trying to hide that.

I was simply pointing to the information from Yougove indicating that 35% don't know who their MP is, I attached a picture in my post. That's why I pointed out that there are systems of MP that retain the local MP for the 65% who do care.

Perhaps more women don't give a toss about polls like this?

Mightn't those 35% who don't know who their MP is, be the same 35% who don't vote at all?

The people who do care, are likely to be reliable voters.

Anyway, as above, I think you've answered your own question here, with a little help from posters on the 'willingness to say 'I don't know' out loud' issue. Essentially; more information and clarity about the question needed, to arrive at an opinion.

@rAvan was there anything else in this poll that further investigated why people had answered how they did? Any space for comments? That would have been useful information to understand why people voted in the poll as they did. Without it, I don’t think you will be able to definitively say why women voted a certain way

I would have answered I don't know.

The reason is that there are pros and cons to both systems, and neither seems overwhelmingly better than the other.

Also there's no reason for me having to take a position on an issue that would need a lot more information to decide.

I think it's difficult for people to have a balanced view about either system unless they have experienced both, or have a grasp of international politics (or internal politics in other countries).
Some opinions pro FPTP seem fairly unaware of what happens in other countries, other than soundbites or more extreme cases that have been on the news, and only superficially, even on this thread.

On a side note, I do wonder if the opinions expressed on the polls reflect discontent with the current government and its majority. And if under a more centrist government, people will be happy again with the current system.
People tend not to want to change things unless there are clear advantages. Even Brexit was sold with a few key ideas that suggested clear benefits (whether right or wrong).

You're studying politics and didn't know that crappy first past the post isn't widely used?
What level are you studying at - pre GCSE?

Another thought, through FPTP people are supposed to feel closer to their MP, and, thus Parliament.
But, as a pp suggested, many people don't vote because they are in safe seats, and feel that their vote doesn't count (that could be debated). Under PR, more votes count.

As for extremists, UKIP still managed to get MPs elected.

I think it would be possible to keep individual constituencies and more direct representation without the current FPTP system, if people, for example, voted for 2nd preferences and those were counted if none of the candidates got more than 50% at the first count.

It's yougov, according to which Sean Connery is the seventh most popular contemporary actor, so I'd take it with a pinch of salt

@groundcontroltomontydon

It's yougov, according to which Sean Connery is the seventh most popular contemporary actor, so I'd take it with a pinch of salt

Yesh!

@UKSub unfortunately not, that would have been bloody helpful!

@ThinWomansBrain I mean, I'm literally starting...but I hope that asinine comment made you feel better.

@lottiegarbanzo that is an interesting question. Voter turnout is another area of interest. And particular concern. Why don't 35% of our population vote, and how do we improve that

@Lweji loads of great points, and indeed UKIP had an MP.

I would argue that they deserve MPs according to their vote share. I don't think a few UKIP MPs would have that much power in parliament, and quite frankly we are naive to think they didn't influence parliament from outside. The last 10 years have been dictated by what they wanted, that's how the Conservative got rid of them as a threat, by subsuming their agenda.

jog right on with the fashion and shite t.v some of us have brains.

Enjoying fashion and television doesn't make you stupid and it's a peculiar form of 'I'm not like the other girls' to insist you're superior because you don't care what your clothes look like. I've got 2 degrees and own a business, I also really love fashion. Newsflash: the reason these things are derided as less important is because women like them, don't let the misogyny come from inside the house.

OP, I think it's because quite a surprising number of people just don't know anything about politics at all. My sister could name you the prime minister and that's about it - she's just got no interest whatsoever. I know lots of people like her, they don't know or care or understand that politics affects every aspect of their lives. None of her friends - late 20s, mostly married, business owners, children, etc - vote or know much about politics at all. I tried explaining once to her and her friend while we were having tea that the amount of child benefit her friend got for her children and the free hours she gets and the tax they both pay as self-employed business owners and a million other things that affect them every day are affected by politics. They were just of the opinion it's something that happens way over our heads and isn't worth getting involved in.

And as PP said, I think there is a societal expectation that men feel like they can't say they don't know because they're expected to be authoritative, whereas women are (very very broadly) more likely to be scared to have a firm opinion on something for fear of being wrong. Which is depressing, but I see it 100 times a week at work - male colleagues confidently offering completely wrong opinions over just saying they don't know, while the women are less likely to do the same.

As for extremists, UKIP still managed to get MP’s elected

In 2015 UKIP came third in terms of overall votes with 12.6% but only got 1 MP elected. The Greens won 3.8% of the votes, their best ever result, but still only got 1 MP elected.
Under PR both would have had much more influence.

I was living in Belgium when there was no government for over a year, and yet it all still functioned, so do we need the politicians?

A Dutch friend was at the point she was going to give up on voting as the coalitions they ended up with, didn't reflect what she had voted for, and she felt disenfranchised. This was a woman whose husband,was on the military diplomatic circuit, and who was very well informed. If she felt like that, then maybe FPTP has advantages?

At a guess I'd say more women put 'don't know' because they don't feel informed enough to give an opinion. Men tend to be more confident in their own knowledge and opinions even when education and experience levels are the same on all sorts of surveys. The Wellcome trust did one on vaccination/ trust in science/ Medicine and found similar.