To think that a child who has never been camping is not necessarily from a ‘deprived’ background

[Urbandweller]

DD’s school organised a camping trip for Y5. DD is younger and didn’t attend but her class teacher went to chaperone. I was chatting with her about it today and she said she was so glad the school was able to organise the trip as so many of the Y5 kids had never been camping and would never otherwise get the chance to go. It was clear that she felt sorry for the children who hadn’t been before and was shaking her head sorrowfully, saying many of them are the same poor kids who have never been to the beach and this is one of the saddest aspects of deprivation...

AIBU to not see the link between camping and deprivation? We’ve never taken DD because it’s my idea of hell, nothing to do with lack of funds!

Twins you come across as an educated person, surely you can understand if everyone gets the same amount surely you realise people spend differently and manage money differently? They may not having budgeting skills - they more than likely were brought up similar- some are feckless parents spend it on takeaways, alcohol, drugs, high cost loans are a major issue after Christmas around here.
They might be excuses however it is a lifestyle for the DC.

I completely understand what you're saying. And I'm not being obtuse, but can't think of any better way to explain what I mean.

I see it as pretty black and white. To hear someone say "I can't even afford camping" when I know I was on zero income (and therefore maximum benefits) I easily could have. We went abroad instead. From what I put aside for about 5 months, from my benefits!

I don't doubt, that people spend their money on other preferences, or as you call it "feckless parents" who might use it on alcohol etc. These people can afford camping. They can't afford camping and a pile of expensive branded clothes every month for the DC. So I don't agree with the statement "I can't" it's "I could, but make other choices with that money". And I'm not talking paying the water bill.

It would be like DH, saying "can't afford our holiday". When he's blown the money for it in the casino. Technically now he doesn't have the money. But he did. He could afford it. He chose to use the money on another non essential.

But that's not the way kids see it - it's about the kids not you.

I hated the idea of camping as a child too - always have, always will. Each to their own, but it’s just not my idea of fun! Like I say, if it was a toss-up between staying at home and camping, I’d far rather not have a holiday at all.

@TwinsandTrifle but when you were on maximum benefits you had your full rent and council tax paid and presumably no debts from before you needed to claim. When I was on maximum benefits I still had to pay £250 pm rent and £80 council tax. After I'd paid that plus food and bills I had approx £5 pw left that got scraped together for school costs or whatever dc needed. You need to understand that's peoples circumstances are frequently different to yours. we never had a takeaway and I only had alcohol when someone gave me a bottle for Xmas or a birthday. There wasn't any choice there.

I hate camping in a tent. Cannot describe how much. No chance I'm taking the kids camping. It would be torture - for us all!

You forgot to mention the goat and pony we keep in garden, you know us that raking it in on benefits.

Can’t wait until we can go back to sitting on our doorsteps drinking beer and getting wasted when dole money clears,

Us poor feckless with money at least kids earn living by selling of stolen goods.

Say again how much was you getting as you must of missed my question earlier as could do with more benefits for fake channel bag.

I don’t think it’s really about the camping, it’s about the general lack of experiences that she must know a lot of the children have had. I used to work in a very deprived primary school and was doing some speech and language work with a child around the sea side. It took quite some time for it to dawn on me that she didn’t have the vocabulary as she’d never been to the beach. We live in a frigging seaside resort…

I took my son glamping to try it out before doing it properly.

He said, "It was ok mummy, but it would have been much better if the tent sides were made of wood...or bricks."

That sums up my feelings on it too.

Not having been camping does not made a child deprived!

Not having been camping does not made a child deprived! No, but not even being able to afford to, to not even have the choice to do whats traditionally the cheap holiday is an indicator of depravation

Deprivation

I don’t think it’s really about the camping, it’s about the general lack of experiences that she must know a lot of the children have had.
Pp's won't hear or acknowledge it.
The follow up beach comment from the teacher has been completely ignored by posters lining up to say "My DC aren't deprived by not going camping, they prefer a hotel stay".

I don’t think it’s really about the camping, it’s about the general lack of experiences that she must know a lot of the children have had.
I know you gave a good example but in general lack of experiences are perceived. We used to not have a lot of money and we have 4 children. I met a teacher one day and she was rolling her eyes about all the clubs etc her kids did. I told her mine didn't do much, they'd quit football on a Saturday morning and unless they really wanted to try something we couldn't really afford to try things out. I explained how we go hiking, play family football, tennis and basketball games etc etc but she most definitely never got past the fact they did no extra curricular planned activities. When she asked about swimming I said we'd possibly take them in the future when we could afford it. The kids are definitely forevermore tarred with pity no matter what. People have tick boxes of life experiences!

Mine won't experience camping with me!

They've been to various continents. Lots of different cities.

But always slept with solid walls and a private bathroom! A minimum for me I'm afraid.

Wow lots of disheartening responses here, some people need to check their privilege.

I think the teacher didn't articulate themself very well, seems the intended point was that some kids don't get to go anywhere on holiday. They don't get to turn their nose up at camping, because they simply don't go away at all! Not everyone has the luxury of choosing to stay in a hotel or go abroad.

TwinsandTrifle but when you were on maximum benefits you had your full rent and council tax paid and presumably no debts from before you needed to claim. When I was on maximum benefits I still had to pay £250 pm rent and £80 council tax.

I had full rent yes. And my council tax was about £150 for the whole year, so essentially a tenner a month.

I can't understand how you had council tax of £80 a month. You were on no income and yet that was calculated as your monthly contribution? Sorry, that's incorrect. Which I say as I'm a qualified accountant, and frequently help people with benefits etc. Were you working? When I say I was on maximum benefits, I mean zero income. Sorry there may have been a little confusion between us there. If you were working, your benefits wouldn't cover (virtually) all of your council tax. I wouldn't call that circumstance, maximum benefits. For your council tax to have been £80p/m you had income of some kind.

I honestly can't remember what I got. It was tax credits. But it was over £200 a week. Plus my child benefit. And my two biggest bills were rent and council tax, and they were both eliminated. Let's say it was £225, tax credits and child benefit. That would average at £975 a month. Which sounds about right, I'm pretty sure it was just under £1k p/m from memory.

After gas, elec, water (capped because I was on benefits) car tax and insc, sky and food/groceries, I still had £300/400. £50 on DC needing shoes/clothes that month perhaps. I think I paid about £60 off a credit card too We lived pretty well. And from an accounting background means I know how to budget ...but I didn't. I didn't need too. This is why I get baffled at people who continually say they can't afford anything. Of course, a one off like the boiler blowing up, might cause problems for a few months. But it's those who say "I can't afford this, or that" all the time....and I think, yes you can, I know people's entitlements, I've even lived it myself, you just can't afford it as well as whatever you're spending it all on.

I just did a calc for me and 3DC if we were to bolt from DH and claim as of today. I'd get fsm, double milk/veg vouchers. £213p/m child benefit. Rent paid. £8.39 council tax p/m to pay. Then £1168 UC. So after rent and ctax, I've got £1,373 a month. After all bills and food, leaves me over £500. I think £500 after all bills and food, is quite a lot per month. And I can certainly afford to go camping. I can't understand where this £500 goes, every single month, for people to say they haven't got £10. It's quite the difference.

If I was working, they'd reduce part of my UC to account for this but I'd be better off every time. So the example I use above, is worst case scenario.

What has you being an account got to do with anything? That's doesn't mean you know each local authority's CT benefit policy or what council tax band I am in. I also live in Scotland where you don't pay water separately. It's itemised in you CT and that doesn't qualify for any CT benefit discount, neither does the refuse and sewerage part of the CT so you pay that part in full. Telling me I had income? No I didn't, that's why I used the term full benefits. I do now though - a low one but now pay full council tax of over £200. So you have one more dc so you got more CTC and CB. I got 110 CT you had a spare 3-400, I didn't, I had less as less dc, deduct the 330 for rent and CT. not all bills are identical, paid for DC's swimming lessons and basic food. I can assure you I had left exactly what I told you which lucky if it was £5 each week. I also got on child maintenance. Something you are forgetting to mention which may well have been why you had so much spare

Referencing that I'm an accountant is for the exact reason I already stated. That I have a knowledge of benefits. And saying I don't know the exact rent allowance for each district, it is a bit irrelevant, because they all use the same principle. The average affordable rent for the size of house you qualify for. Where I live, the housing allowance I would get now is £700 less than if I moved to London.

Again, not all bills are identical. But one adult, one DC living in a 2 bed, should generate the same kind of bills. That's why you can draw direct comparison. And query why if family A, have the same income, and same generated living expenses, how are they comfortable, when family B is in poverty.

I refer only to England though. I've got no knowledge of the Scottish system. If you were in England, with no income, your ctax would not be £80 a month.

And I had no other income, no CM. I have stated I had one DC when I had the spare £400 a month, the calc now, I have 3DC and would have about £500 left over. I was better off with less children. Which again makes perfect sense, as you receive a certain amount for the first child, and a reduced amount for subsequent. Also, you can make any situation suddenly use up the spare £400. Again that's what I mean. I could have moved to a house £400 over the average rental price. Does this mean I can't afford anything and don't even have £10 to spare? Because I would have had enough, but I picked a house hundreds in excess of the average 2 bed property in my area. My water bill was capped at £32. It was only £40 before I claimed benefits.

You didn't really answer my question, the £80 ctax was per month? And the £200 you pay now, is that per month too? The 3 bed my friend just moved out of in Cambridge, a notoriously expensive area, was £140p/m. The 5 bed I'm in now is £170 p/m. You are on low income (which by definition entitles you to benefits) and you are paying £200 a month?

Sorry, something isn't adding up here. I know you're coming out with figures, but they don't add up to that level of difference. It's possible you are financially penalised to that extreme purely by being on Scottish benefits than English. I'll do my calc again, with an address in Scotland. See how much it reduces by ....

You didn't really answer my question, the £80 ctax was per month? And the £200 you pay now, is that per month too? The 3 bed my friend just moved out of in Cambridge, a notoriously expensive area, was £140p/m. The 5 bed I'm in now is £170 p/m. You are on low income (which by definition entitles you to benefits) and you are paying £200 a month?

I don't think Council tax costs are positively related to the expense of the area - in fact the opposite might hold, less deprivation - lower council tax - doesn't Westminster have one of the lowest rates - with some pretty expensive real estate. I lived in Scotland in the 90s - my council tax was eye watering - 20% of my gross salary for a one bed tenement flat! It's less than 1% of our household income now in a very expensive area in England - not exactly what you'd ca;; a progressive tax!

But where I live ALL the 2 bed homes are in excess of the 2 bed housing allowance when renting privately. I don't live in an extravagant house - it's a tiny 2 bed shoe box flat which hasn't been modernised since it was built in the 80's and the old inefficient heating system costs more than a lovely new boiler and system. You doing yourself a UC calc is irrelevant seeing it's based on individual circumstances and individual LA areas for housing allowances. How much CT you pay is based on the band your house is classed as - mine is band D and you pay a percentage (plus as I said full water and sewerage rates) You can argue all you like and do calculations based on your own circumstances but doesn't change the fact that others circumstances vary massively

Yes the council tax payments are per month - well 12 months CT paid over 10 months at least. I don't care what your friend in Cambridge paid. I don't know what band she was on or what the rates are for Cambridge and it's not relevant to me. This is what I pay.

I picked Aberdeen. With all my other details identical.

I get £1168 in UC and need to make a £52 contribution to my cover my rent. But then they cover 100% of my council tax bill. I get the same £213 child benefit. But I also get an extra £87 "'Scottish child payment"

Giving my overall total after rent and ctax as £1416. My overall total as above, using my address in England is £1,373. I'd be £43 per month better off in Scotland.

That's a direct like for like comparison. I thought it sounded odd to be so dramatically disadvantaged. Turns out, the calc is identical, even with a slight gain.

I’ve camped once overseas by a beautiful beach in a foreign country that had almost guaranteed weather with actual beds as a child about 35 years ago. We went with my aunt who lived there. I don’t remember an awful lot but I’ve never had the desire to go since, I also have no desire for skiing, even though we could afford it. We are just not interested in those types of holidays.

We did pick a school that does camp every year and a ski trip though so that if DC want to go they can.

Funnily enough, the band I picked for my calcs was band D. So that makes things even more in line.

I hate the thought of camping. My (now adult) DC felt the same. None of us are deprived. If you enjoy it, crack on

Ok - I don't live in Aberdeen and I'm not on UC. When I was on benefits I was on income support and UC did not exist. Your calculations are irrelevant

Also there was no Scottish child payment back (and I don't qualify now) CT benefit is entirely separate to UC, still through local council so the band you chose makes no difference.