To think acupuncture is pointless?

[beastlyslumber]

It pains me to say I've been acupunctured today and lying there on the table with pins in my face for 20 minutes (then parting with 50 quid) all I could think was, god I am a gullible fool.

I'm not trying to needle anyone but really, what is the point?

@beastlyslumber

I can’t remember how many sessions. I think it was weekly for a few months and then occasionally for ‘maintenance’. The treatment was pretty much an overhaul of my immune system, a few sessions probably won’t work.

I would look for someone with lots of qualifications who is likely to be a teacher themselves, or who trained in China.

Thanks @Wooolffff that's helpful. I don't think I can afford that kind of money right now but if I decide to in the future, I'll have a better idea what I'm looking for, thank you!

I had acupuncture during my two successful IVF cycles. (Had 4 cycles in total after more than 10 years ttc.) Of course I can’t prove that the acupuncture was what made the difference but there was enough evidence available to suggest that it might help to make me try it. It also made me feel so much better generally - more relaxed and nurtured. Money well spent in my opinion, even if the cycles hadn’t worked, as it made the process a little bit less stressful and made me feel a little bit more in control.

@wheresmymojo

It's actually genuinely scientifically proven hence why it is available on the NHS for some things.

Properly qualified practitioners have to study for a four year degree.

It's not at all 'scientifically proven', and it's on the NHS as a placebo. Which is frankly shocking but there was a big fad for this shit years back.

It is a pseudoscience, not based on scientific knowledge and trials have been inconsistent, suggesting it is not effective. Recent studies have shown little evidence in its treatment of pain and there’s no evidence of any long-term benefits. In 2020 Science-Based Magazine ran a systematic review of the available data, concluding it is little more than “a theatrical placebo” and revealed many weaknesses in the design of the clinical trials. Trials have frequently found that it doesn’t matter where the needles are inserted (the control group gets ‘the wrong’ locations) and some patients reported positive effects even when no needles were inserted.

If you want to go read the articles and debunkings, the Wikipedia article has a wide collection of actual analysis.

If people enjoy buying a placebo experience then fine, but it's immoral to suggest it's at all scientific, it's proven or it works. It is none of these things.

My GP treated my back pain with it. I was sceptical but the relief was fairly instant.
I'm a convert, but I am told a lot depends on who is administering it.

If people enjoy buying a placebo experience then fine, but it's immoral to suggest it's at all scientific, it's proven or it works. It is none of these things.

If it’s just a placebo, why didn’t the course of physiotherapy just work for DH then? The two courses cost the same. He believed in physiotherapy, far more than he did acupuncture!

Anyway, how is it immoral to describe what worked for DH? He is the last person on Earth to believe in anything woo.

I think you need to believe in it for it to work

@LuxOlente

It can't be scientifically proven. Nothing can.

People don't care if it's scientifically proven or not, they care if it works. If it didn't, it would be becoming less popular, not more. The 'fad for this shit' has been going on for around 5000 years (that we know of, and probably longer)

You don't seem to have fully read the Wikipedia article that you're using to back up your point:

'Two separate 2016 Cochrane reviews found that acupuncture could be useful in the prevention of tension-type headaches and episodic migraines'

'A 2014 review concluded that "current evidence supports the use of acupuncture as an alternative to traditional analgesics in osteoarthritis patients" '

'A 2014 systematic review found that although manual acupuncture was effective at relieving short-term pain when used to treat tennis elbow, its long-term effect in relieving pain was "unremarkable".

'A 2007 review found that acupuncture was significantly better than sham acupuncture at treating chronic knee pain; the evidence was not conclusive due to the lack of large, high-quality trials'

'Several meta-analytic and systematic reviews suggest that acupuncture alleviates sleep disturbance, particularly insomnia'

There's also a good deal of references to the fact that many studies are incomplete, poor quality, and inconclusive.

We need rigorous trials, but it's hard to get funding because you can't mass produce acupuncture.

But enjoy your 'science' and keep on popping those pills. I'm sure your bias won't adversely affect anybody.

@inmyslippers

I think you need to believe in it for it to work

I think it needs to work for you to believe in it.

Works for me. I don't know if there's a placebo effect or not, and frankly I don't care.

Definitively worth trying with teens suffering with their periods for example. At worst.. it doesn't work, so what .It won't harm them.

Some acupuncturists are even attached to GP surgeries and recommended by them - that's how I found mine. If even some western GP are confident about their results, I am happy to carry on

You can think it's pointless, but you can't claim it is.. when it's just your own opinion after ONE try.

I think it needs to work for you to believe in it.

^^ placebos will only work if you're open minded to them

@inmyslippers

I think it needs to work for you to believe in it.

^^ placebos will only work if you're open minded to them

How does it work on animals, then?

Susceptible to praise and attention I imagine. With an optimistic owner to boot

You don't think that the sort of owner who would book their animal in for acupuncture would be the kind of owner who would give their animal praise and attention anyway? Free?

@inmyslippers

I think you need to believe in it for it to work

I didn't think it would work, didn't believe in it, but it worked in one session for my frozen shoulder and helped with cystic acne. I only had it as a last resort before steroid injections.

I'm still skeptical and I'm a Chinese Medicine practitioner! It proves me wrong over and over, and works well for so many things.

I’ve had two courses of acupuncture, both on the NHS. The first time I didn’t believe in it at all. I was told they were out of options to treat my chronic headaches and the last thing they could suggest trying was acupuncture. I thought it was a load of twaddle but reluctantly gave it a try and it was magical. It just switched the headaches off and after the 6 week course I didn’t have another headache for 18 months. I don’t think it was a placebo effect because I really didn’t expect it to work. I would feel so woozy and relaxed after treatment that I had to wait a while to drive back to work.

The second time was about 5 years later, again for headaches which had slowly ramped back up. This time I was really expecting it to work and pushed for it when the consultant was recommending another treatment. Again it was done in the hospital by a different NHS consultant. This time it was just like he was sticking pins in me. There was no relaxing effect and no effect on my headaches. So I do believe it works, I don’t believe it’s a placebo, and I think its efficacy depends completely on the skill of the practitioner.

It didn’t work for me. I think it’s all down to the placebo effect if it does work.

As someone for whom acupuncture worked I must say I was totally sceptical. I remember after attending the first appointment dismissing it as quackery. I only kept the second appointment because the practitioner was one of my sister’s teachers (she was learning shiatsu massage). Then it started to work and it completely convinced me.

The hospital doctor I saw at the time - he later became a professor - was very interested in the whole thing and said the obviously western medicine can’t diagnose and treat everything.

It didn’t work for me. I think it’s all down to the placebo effect if it does work.

It’s like me saying codeine doesn’t work for me; it must be the placebo effect on other people! A doctor told me, I am one of those people, whose liver doesn’t convert it into morphine - one of 8% of the population apparently, who therefore get poor pain relief from codeine.

Likewise, there could be a perfectly good explanation why acupuncture doesn’t work for some people - we just don’t know what it is!