AIBU to wonder if the Queen made a grammatical error?

[deardiary66]

The Queen has written a letter to Gareth Southgate ahead of tonight’s football game that includes the words:

“I want to send my congratulations and that of my family to you all”

Is “that” correct here or should it be “those”, as “congratulations” is plural?

I don’t mean to nitpick, but I saw the letter and genuinely wondered what was technically correct!

[quote ZingDramaQueenOfSheeba]@GiantWingedWaspMoth

I think using "we" for herself, but singular for her family is exactly what she would do.
because it's quaint and because she can🤣[/quote]
😆 yep, that's the best argument I've seen for it yet 😁

@ZingDramaQueenOfSheeba Oh my, So sorry, I think I must be the Anglosplainer? Aaaaargh (goes to check correct spelilng of Aaaaaaaargh...

Perhaps the distinction is between physical rather than animate forms, and sentiment form.

No, it isn't.

'Those' can be used to refer to plural nouns of any kind.

'That' can refer to plural or singular nouns of any kind when it is being used as a relative pronoun (in informal English at least) - 'the dog that...','the people that...', 'the books that...' etc.

'That' as a demonstrative pronoun can only be used to refer to an inanimate, singular noun (or a concept or as-yet-not-introduced thing). 'My hat is blue. That of my brother is green' 'That which he knew to be true was unknown to his family'. But this kind of usage often sounds old-faahioned and formal. You'd obviously more likely say 'My brother's is green' and 'What he knew'.

[quote Zilla1]@ZingDramaQueenOfSheeba Oh my, So sorry, I think I must be the Anglosplainer? Aaaaargh (goes to check correct spelilng of Aaaaaaaargh...[/quote]
@Zilla1
🤣🤣🤣

noooooo!
I meant that being Hungarian I wouldn't want to explain English to English people!

Sometimes I'm forced to & believe me it's awkward.
But I don't know this one for sure.

GiantWingedWaspMoth

GiantWingedWaspMoth
I shall return my English degree tomorrow before handing myself in to the authorities at The Tower

You know it's the right thing to do.

(Although given that you were defending the Queen and I wasn't, I'll maybe see you there!)
You might not need me, but me and my severed head are coming to haunt you once the deed is done 👻

(Too far?)

“I have no fear of an headless torso (or torso less head?) that in human form fell into my trap and failed to spot the deliberate mistake in my previous post. Outed!”

Mwahaha 👹

I think using "we" for herself, but singular for her family is exactly what she would do.
because it's quaint and because she can🤣

😆 yep, that's the best argument I've seen for it yet 😁

Not really, since the issue is her use of the singular pronoun to refer to the word 'congratulations',not her family!

Don't even get me started on the use of plural verbs with singular collective nouns... 'The government are...' ... or I might need more hair stroking.

I bet Susie Dent’s birthing kittens right now.

I know, I know. She more words than actual grammar but still… I hear those tiny meows in the wind.

@lazylinguist

*I think using "we" for herself, but singular for her family is exactly what she would do. because it's quaint and because she can🤣*

😆 yep, that's the best argument I've seen for it yet 😁

Not really, since the issue is her use of the singular pronoun to refer to the word 'congratulations',not her family!

Don't even get me started on the use of plural verbs with singular collective nouns... 'The government are...' ... or I might need more hair stroking.

I’m with you on ‘the government are’, but it’s at least far more obvious why people use it.

She more words than actual grammar

I reckon she just birthed some more 😆

@lazylinguist

*I think using "we" for herself, but singular for her family is exactly what she would do. because it's quaint and because she can🤣*

😆 yep, that's the best argument I've seen for it yet 😁

Not really, since the issue is her use of the singular pronoun to refer to the word 'congratulations',not her family!

Don't even get me started on the use of plural verbs with singular collective nouns... 'The government are...' ... or I might need more hair stroking.

@lazylinguist
oh, I know that "that" in the message doesn't refer to the family.

mine was only a throw away comment.

In all seriousness though, it's not at all surprising people don't know this stuff. It wasn't taught in schools in English lessons. In my experience (French German and Latin A Levels, Oxbridge languages degree, 25 years of language teaching), if you want a grammar problem solved, ask a linguist, not an English teacher. There are exceptions of course!

@GiantWingedWaspMoth

She more words than actual grammar

I reckon she just birthed some more 😆

*she has just

🤣🤣

I think it is correct.

@lazylinguist

In all seriousness though, it's not at all surprising people don't know this stuff. It wasn't taught in schools in English lessons. In my experience (French German and Latin A Levels, Oxbridge languages degree, 25 years of language teaching), if you want a grammar problem solved, ask a linguist, not an English teacher. There are exceptions of course!

I learnt German, Russian (can't speak either now) and have been learning Spanish & Italian. I love languages and find the little details & irregularities the most fascinating. I wish I could speak at least 30 languages - I have a list!🤣

She more words than actual grammar

I reckon she just birthed some more 😆

she has just

Oi! Nowt wrong with 'she just birthed some more'. 'she birthed' and 'she has birthed' are both acceptable English 😝

lazylinguist oh, I know that "that" in the message doesn't refer to the family. mine was only a throw away comment.

Yes, sorry Zing - maybe I should step away from the thread before I am tempted to start issuing worksheets and fetch my red pen.

@GiantWingedWaspMoth

She more words than actual grammar

I reckon she just birthed some more 😆

she has just

Oi! Nowt wrong with 'she just birthed some more'. 'she birthed' and 'she has birthed' are both acceptable English 😝

she birthed - simple past she has birthed - past perfect

you added "just" which, to the best of my knowledge, is only used in past perfect.
"she just birthed" is not a thing
'she's just birthed" is correct

@lazylinguist
what's your red pen saying about this?

oh ffs, I meant present perfect
not past perfect.

I need coffee

My buttocks are perter than those of my sister.

If only sentences like these were actually used in school lessons…

When using just, present perfect tense is more formal.

Past simple is informal, but also correct. Probably also more common in America, but a lot of things that are in common use here in Scotland and also Ireland (like gotten) are considered Americanisms by some English people, despite having been used in Britain for my lifetime and longer.

I disagree.

" I just did that" is grammatically incorrect, based on what I was taught.
It should be either "I did that" or "I've just done that".

Just because people say it & use it it doesn't mean it's right. But if it is going to be or has been accepted as correct grammar because of overuse that's a different issue.

I always correct my kids because to me it sounds wrong. sorry

you added "just" which, to the best of my knowledge, is only used in past perfect.
"she just birthed" is not a thing 'she's just birthed" is correct

@lazylinguist what's your red pen saying about this?

Ummm... I have to confess that I don't ever remember considering rules about the use of 'just' with different tenses . Thinking about it.... I think I would happily use it with either of those tenses in some circumstances at least.

For example I'd definitely answer the question "Where is Brian?" with "Oh he just left." or "Oh he's just left."

But whether that's technically correct or just popular usage, I actually have no idea. I shall throw my red pen in the bin.

[quote ZingDramaQueenOfSheeba]

@Chocolatier9a

My buttocks are perter than those of my sister.

If only sentences like these were actually used in school lessons…

If it only it were true!!!

I always correct my kids because to me it sounds wrong. sorry

It's not me you should be apologising to...

According to Betty Azar in 'understanding and wedding English grammar'

"Just" can indicate that something happened a very short time ago, very close in time to the present moment, but still in the past. When "just" expresses this meaning, it is frequently used with the present perfect. However, in informal English the simple past is also often used. Both (a) and (b) are correct:

(a)

"I've just finished a letter to my parents."

(b)

"I just finished a letter to my parents."