Two Child Limit

[MobilityCat]

Will you be affected? Campaigners have lost their legal challenge to the government's two-child limit on welfare payments.
They had argued the policy breached parents' and children's human rights. The Supreme Court dismissed their case.
The rule, which came into force in April 2017, restricts child tax credit and universal credit to the first two children in a family, with a few exceptions.
It was one of George Osborne's most debated austerity measures.
The policy has affected families of about one million children. Campaigners described the decision as "hugely disappointing".
Full story here www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57776103

Of course working tax credit is a benefit. How can it not be.

I have always been a bit surprised that the cap wasn’t judged as indirect discrimination against religious and cultural propensity for larger families.

It must disproportionately affect people who have a religious and or cultural imperative against contraception and or in favour of larger families.

I had more than 2 children, which as a family we could afford. My husband became abusive and I left. He is now not working. So I’m not entitled to child maintenance payments through CMS. Struggling to see how this policy is fair to be honest. It’s like I’m being punished for leaving an abusive relationship.

It must disproportionately affect people who have a religious and or cultural imperative against contraception and or in favour of larger families.

Religious/cultural imperatives that take choice and control over their bodies away from women can fuck off as far as I’m concerned.

[quote coulditbecominghome]@AlexaShutUp they read it in the Fail so it must be true 🤦🏻‍♀️[/quote]
Indeed.

It's utterly depressing that so many people have so little awareness or empathy for people who live in circumstances that are different from their own. That they assume that people who have somehow fallen on hard times may inevitably be to blame because they haven't worked hard enough or because they haven't planned carefully enough or because they have made poor decisions. Yes, in some cases, some or all of those things may be true, but in other cases, people are just fucking unlucky. It's a shame that some people are so unable to step outside of their privileged little bubbles that they are unable to see how incredibly fortunate they are.

There are over 7 billion people on the planet. Personally, I think everyone should have been restricted to a maximum of two children years ago. How that would have been enforced is a very difficult matter though. In the not too distance future there will not be enough food for everyone and, if we continue to chop down the rain forest, there won't be enough air either so no point in worrying about monetary benefits then.

@HelenHywater

Most of the posts on this thread are utterly utterly depressing.

You do know that children are going without FOOD because of the Tory party policies? That children are in poverty? That children are suffering. Jeez. The inhumanity on this thread.

Spot on.

The views by some on this thread are depressing.

Out of interest, would all those who agree with this policy be happy for us to scrapallchild- related benefits? On the basis that people shouldn't have children that they can't afford? So no CB, no CTC, no subsidised childcare etc for any children? Because that's surely the logical conclusion of your argument?

Wouldn't make any difference to me, as I don't qualify for CB etc anyway, but I imagine that at leastsomeof those squawking about people supporting their own children would be annoyed if these benefits were removed.

I really wish I hadn’t read this thread.

There a couple of people on here who have posted about their own circumstances which are directly relevant to this debate.

One who many years ago got state support when she needed it and turned her life around.

One who has escaped an abusive relationship and is struggling because of the lack of state support.

Zero responses to either of those posts. It’s pretty telling that all those banging on in support of this policy would rather keep trotting out their small minded views of the types of people they think this policy affects instead of engaging with and learning from people on this forum who have real life experience of it.

@AlexaShutUp. I suspect a significant proportion of posters who claim to support their children themselves are in receipt of child benefit and/or tax credits or their equivalent. It just makes them feel good to put others down. It is very sad that some people have no understanding of how vulnerable we all are to other people’s decisions which throw our own lives into chaos. Indeed, I have seen plenty of threads over the years on just how awful it is someone unexpectedly unemployed experiences being on benefits.

Because that's surely the logical conclusion of your argument?

Exactly, If you shouldn't do things you can't afford then that should mean no wtc or CB, or any benefits at all?

@CoralSparkles

A two child limit is very generous. If you want DC then you should ensure you can afford them. Tax payers shouldn’t have to pay for someone else’s 7 kids.

From that pov I'm paying for everyone else's second child when we couldn't afford to even have that many. We stopped at one because we get fuck all help anyway. It does make me angry and in all honestly if I had my time again I don't know whether I'd bother working at all because we're no better off, not really.

@Puffalicious

lynsey91 I'm not saying that- many will have very young siblings, but not all- . What I am also saying is that I see terrible poverty and this cap is just one example of how things will be made even worse for some children.. I'm saying that holistically poverty is a complex issue and needs looking at very carefully by the best, non-political brains there are. We need solutions, proper, human solutions. I don't think a cap.is that solution. Like I've said, investment and systematic change is the solution. The money is there if we close the massive tax loops for big business.

I completely and utterly agree with you @Puffalicious. I don’t think some people are aware of just how desperate a lot of children’s lives are.

I love the whole concept of child benefit. It puts money exactly where it can help the most. Child benefit, free healthcare and education, free glasses and dentists for every child in our country is what I want.

@Lagomtransplant

Well, total fertility rate is 1.6 and in a free fall. Roughly only 18% of women (down from 25% before the introduction of the limit) go on to have a third or more, so it's a bit of a moot point for majority of the people. Especially when you consider that almost half of women who had a birth of third order or more since then fall in the category where they, or their partner, earn over the child benefit limit.

On the side note, I work in a place looking at numbers like these, so I'm not pulling the stats out of thin air.

@Lagomtransplant

So would you say the policy change has reduced the number of people going on to have additional children while in receipt of tax credits?

@KiwiDramaQueen thanks.
& It’s ok - it’s far easier for people to not look and be blind to the obvious. People’s circumstances change, relationships end, spouses die, people can become abusive. The policy has everything to do with keeping poor people poor. It’s painful to see this result after hearing about the universal credit ££20 being lost in the autumn. Some people who aren’t living it just don’t see it...

So short sighted. Nobody is an island. What benefits others ultimately benefits us all.

Yes job losses etc can happen but it’s not hard to think I can afford x now but could only afford x if I wasn’t working and make a decision that’s financially sound if things change. Or have good insurance in place or savings.

Then no one (except perhaps the very rich) would have children, because very few people could afford to raise children if their circumstances suddenly changed drastically for the worse. And unless you're quite well off, you won't have sufficient savings or be able to get affordable insurance.

And sometimes unpredictable things happen individually (a serious illness or disability; the death or desertion of a spouse) or nationally or globally (a war; a major banking crisis and recession as in 2008; a serious pandemic as currently) that throw all calculations into disarray.

There are genuine arguments for policies that discourage population increase - though in the UK reproduction rates are already below replacement level - but let's not start blaming people for not having a crystal ball to foretell every possible disaster. At least, not unless you want the reproduction rate to plummet almost to zero.

@KiwiDramaQueen

I really wish I hadn’t read this thread.

There a couple of people on here who have posted about their own circumstances which are directly relevant to this debate.

One who many years ago got state support when she needed it and turned her life around.

One who has escaped an abusive relationship and is struggling because of the lack of state support.

Zero responses to either of those posts. It’s pretty telling that all those banging on in support of this policy would rather keep trotting out their small minded views of the types of people they think this policy affects instead of engaging with and learning from people on this forum who have real life experience of it.

I know, I'm surprised by the huge support for the two child ruling. Raising awareness of the families and in particular the children's plight was my intention.

@LobotomisedIceSkatingFan

I agree that WTC should never have been termed a 'benefit'. That said - I'm on them and have 3 kids; only the first two are on the claim. I think that's probably fair enough. Those who claim for five, six, seven kids are very much in 'taking the puss' territory'.

of course it is a benefit. It is not taxed and it is an income top up for low earners. It is misleading that it is called a tax credit I think the decision to call it that was a way to justify its use which encourages employers to pay what they can get away with It also makes it appear that it was in someway a pay back for tax paid. Income support was a much clearer description.

Tax payers shouldn’t have to pay for someone else’s 7 kids.

How many people in the UK have 7 kids?

@AlexaShutUp

Out of interest, would all those who agree with this policy be happy for us to scrapallchild- related benefits? On the basis that people shouldn't have children that they can't afford? So no CB, no CTC, no subsidised childcare etc for any children? Because that's surely the logical conclusion of your argument?

Wouldn't make any difference to me, as I don't qualify for CB etc anyway, but I imagine that at leastsomeof those squawking about people supporting their own children would be annoyed if these benefits were removed.

Yes, I’d favour more money for healthcare, education, social services etc over paying for people’s choices. We should be encouraging personal responsibility and work ethics rather than allowing people to make choices they can’t afford which others have to fund through taxes whilst many will be limiting their own choices. An equal footing for all. People are then free to have as many children as they like, work part time or not at all but doing so in the knowledge they have to fund those choices themselves.

I’m all for a welfare safety net in times of need but not a system that funds choices people can’t afford.

@Roomonb

There is some debate as to the effect of covid on the latest set of results, of course, but the general consensus is that yes, fewer children were born as a result of this policy.

There is also the more sinister statistics of a blip in abortion rates in 2017 and 2018, which is thought to be the result of the same, as the increase was notable for 3rd and subsequent pregnancies. This returned to average in 2019, but is higher again, although the latest increase isn't limited to a single age or parity group, so more likely due to covid insecurities.

I agree that WTC should never have been termed a 'benefit

But it is a benefit so rightly is called one. Even child benefit comes under the benefit list.

It was never really a refund of tax paid as many claimed more a month than they would have ever paid in tax.

And how do you get people into a position of making those right choices @IceCreamAndCandyfloss?