To think if the NHS have such a recruitment crisis…

[Michaelknightsleatherjacket]

They could maybe tweak their recruitment policies and educational options to make it attractive for mature students and ‘returners’ to the workplace to train for clinical roles?

Students who already have a degree and are planning to undertake a nursing, midwifery or allied health profession subject as a second degree will now also have access to student loans through the student loans system
Yeah I can’t take on a second lot of debt. I haven’t even paid the first one off yet! I’d happily retrain if it was funded but as far as I can tell only nursing is “free”.

@Strongswans

I agree op, the NHS may be flexible, but the training required to get there isn't. I started a mental health nursing course as a mature student last year, I had to leave, even though I was so upset to do so because during covid when schools were off there was no leeway whatsoever for parents. So I'm now in debt for the part I did, and they lost a student who would of been good. Considering the NHS are in dire need of MH nurses you would think a bit of flexibility would go a long way.

Actually I can't fault my department (an allied healthcare profession one but not nursing) in terms of how they tried to help the mature students with kids get through home-schooling hell. Most of the lecturing staff were in the same situation!

Noterook
No he is earning £28k in his apprenticeship, I earn £20k for 20 hours. Split over 3 days.

Some of my colleagues are doing apprenticeships whilst working the other 4 days a week in the lab! They get one day a week off for study leave.
I think the NHS prefers it if you’re already in the workforce.

@Ohhok, already in the NHS workforce you mean?

I work in a highly specialised NHS role. Those joining the profession have a degree as a minimum, most have a masters, and all complete a vocational masters as part of their training (which takes 3.5 - 4 years full time ). Is this level of training needed? Absolutely, due to the scope, complexity and demands of the role.

We don't have a problem attracting people to the profession. This year 400+ graduates applied for 15 NHS funded training posts. Indeed 130+ applied for 22 non funded MSc places. Retention is also not a problem, few people leave the profession except to retire!

The problem is years of under investment can't be suddenly undone. Demand for our skills has increased massively but we just can't safely train large numbers at once.

@ShitPoetryClub

Noterook No he is earning £28k in his apprenticeship, I earn £20k for 20 hours. Split over 3 days.

I don't think it's quite the same comparison if you work part time, you'd be on over £10k more if you did full time hours. I agree pay could be better, but it's a bit of a disingenuous comment.

Noterook
I really don't care what you think. The pay is bloody appalling for the level of responsibility expected. In 2 years, on graduation, my DS's salary will be £44k. His level of responsibility is nowhere near that of any nurse. Whilst I'm pleased for him and othersike him, it makes it very evident how little this government values nurses.

@Michaelknightsleatherjacket

No not nursing. I’ve seen something which is offered from trainee level as an apprenticeship. I’ve done something entirely different (self employed/ better paid but very niche and an industry affected badly by the pandemic) for 15 years, and think I have lots of transferable skills. The reality is that the way the application form is formulated it just looks as though I have zero traditional qualifications post gcse, and it’ll probably be immediately rejected. I don’t need flexibility, as I had children very young, and now they’re adults. (Which is the reason I fell in to working in the industry I had a ‘talent’ for, rather than something like medicine, which I’d have liked to do but was too demanding with small babies). Anyway that ship has well and truly sailed, but now I really crave a career that amongst other things has a) job security, b) ongoing exciting learning possibilities and training c) people… my job is quite solitary.

I think you should contact whoever is providing the training programme and talk to them, maybe they will happily accept your experience/qualifications, etc? Maybe they will realise they need to reformat the application form.

Years ago I did similar and then got offered a funded master place for speciality nhs training.

As a senior lecturer now I occasionally get phone calls/emails and sometimes I’m slightly able to bend the rules to interview people.

What does a nurse/OT earn in Australia?

I have a relative in Australia who is an OT and she has not been able to get a permanent contract - she worked abroad for a year and that break has caused an increase in her wait for a contract. So, many years of experience but none of the benefits of a full contract.

I used to teach on a degree apprenticeship for an AHP programme. It’s still a degree, so you still need strong academic foundations, particularly in sciences, you’d struggle without it. In fact it’s more intensive than a traditional route degree but because it’s usually people who’ve been working as an assistant in the profession for years and they’re doing it because they want to progress but can’t give up work to do the traditional route, the standard of applicants is very high.
As others have said, the recruitment crisis is because of staff leaving (in my profession, mainly through retirement) and also the impact of removing the bursary which was a ridiculous idea that they’re now having to try and make amends for.
The numbers we can train are also limited by the number of HCPs who will offer placements, so if you are a HCP and are worried about retention but don’t take students, it’s partly on you.
Anyway, if you’re passionate about it (because you’ll need to be), get some experience and get the right education, it will be worth it in the end.

@ShitPoetryClub

Noterook I really don't care what you think. The pay is bloody appalling for the level of responsibility expected. In 2 years, on graduation, my DS's salary will be £44k. His level of responsibility is nowhere near that of any nurse. Whilst I'm pleased for him and othersike him, it makes it very evident how little this government values nurses.

I don't care either, but its annoying people post a heap of crap for dramatic effect. Is he working in the public sector, or in the private? I can guess, and it's likely not the one where government set wages, as has always been the case the overall employment package is usually better long term in the public sector, but private has more flexibility on wages. Pay has never been just about level of responsibility.

Have you looked at Access to Nursing courses? They're one year full time college courses designed for people like you - mature students who want to go into nursing but don't have the required academic qualifications. It's a very popular entry route.

There aren't enough university spaces to train enough staff. Or enough funding for this. Healthcare courses aren't very profitable for uni's to run so they are being cut back, especially in specialist areas like chiropody and physiotherapy. Brexit has also been a factor in this as it is harder to get foreign specialists to work at british uni's. There are also high drop out rates for these courses because you need a lot of resilience and energy to work in healthcare.

@PRabbit

Students who already have a degree and are planning to undertake a nursing, midwifery or allied health profession subject as a second degree will now also have access to student loans through the student loans system Yeah I can’t take on a second lot of debt. I haven’t even paid the first one off yet! I’d happily retrain if it was funded but as far as I can tell only nursing is “free”.

Have you checked how the repayments work? It might be that your repayments won't change (they're linked to how much you earn, not how much you owe) and any remaining balance is written off after 30 years.

The total debt you owe is basically irrelevant due to this

My loan gets wiped when I turn 65. Not after 30 years. I was under the impression that if you’d already had a loan they wouldn’t give you another one?

Apprenticeships for NHS allied health professionals are one of the ways mature students with experience at assistant level are being encouraged to progress towards qualification and beyond. It's an excellent way to do it, as it brings existing skills from many areas into university cohorts which adds to students' experience and knowledge. It also means those students can progress within their existing roles thus gaining more initial confidence as a newly qualified AHP than an otherwise educated newly qualified OT or physio might bring. And it's all done while being paid assistant wages, which minimises disruption to people who are likely to have houses, kids etc that they are already managing.

@PRabbit

My loan gets wiped when I turn 65. Not after 30 years. I was under the impression that if you’d already had a loan they wouldn’t give you another one?

There's exceptions to the rules on second degree funding if your second degree is in healthcare

www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/career-planning/study-and-training/considering-or-university/financial-support-university

The NHS have no interest in resolving the recruitment crisis for two reasons.

The first is that the "efficiency savings" the NHS is expected to magic up every year can only really be achieved by carrying vacancies. Even if the workforce was out there (which it isn't) they won't employ the people they need because the Treasury - and, by extension, the taxpayer - is not willing to pay for them.

The second is that the professions themselves have historically never been willing to train the right numbers anyway. For decades we've only trained about half the doctors and nurses we actually need in the UK because of the laws of economic scarcity: it suits the doctors and nurses controlling the training system that their own skills become more valuable simply because they're more scarce. It's utter nonsense that a salaried GP here earns nearly twice as much as one in France.

We used to make the numbers up by importing clinicians, but those numbers have collapsed as a consequence of both the pandemic and Brexit. Add in high levels of natural wastage and of course the workforce simply isn't there.

Many training courses have a terrifying drop out rate - trainee nurses are expected to work as part of their course, study at degree level and keep body and soul together - the bursaries and maintenance loans don't go very far when you've got parking fees, union fees, registration fees, text books and equipment and pay for life.

Many end up as bank HCAs to pay for it all and burnt out before they've qualified.

The NHS recently downgraded a lot of admin roles - PAs are now Band 3s or 4s instead of 5 and 6s, secretaries with AMSPAR training are now 3s and huge amounts of work, normally expected of higher secretarial roles are expected of Band 2s - minuting meetings, audio typing, high secretarial work as well as interacting with patients, making appointments and updating confidential details.

Everyone seems to be saying it's a popular course But nursing is in Clearing every year at the two local unis

Yes @MayThelock the course element of the apprenticeship I’m interested in is in clearing in loads of local unis too. Just that the universities are absolutely fixated on ucas points.

@MayThelock

Everyone seems to be saying it's a popular course But nursing is in Clearing every year at the two local unis

In my experience (and I do have some professional experience in this area), nursing tends to attract huge numbers of applicants per place - often more than medicine, or at least it did at the uni I worked for.

The trouble was that the quality of the nursing applicants was much more variable than the quality of the medicine applicants. We used to get a very significant number of applications from woefully underqualified applicants - crap GCSEs and no A Levels but a personal statement that says they have given birth to a child of their own and love babies so they've decided to apply for midwifery... I'm paraphrasing slightly but that was often the quality attracted, and we simply couldn't accept them.

Of course, if the same applicant reapplied the following year with an Access course in progress (and if they'd realised midwifery is more about maternal health than babies) they'd at least reach the interview stage.