So, british mumsnet, how do you feel about statues of Queen Victorian and QEII torn down in Canada?

[Evangeli]

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57693683

While we're talking about statues, curious to hear opinions on this. Are you shocked, outraged or just "meh"? I feel this is different from the slaver captain who was torn down last year (in Plymouth?) or the military/politician men who have been toppling across Canada- it feels even more iconoclastic?

Personally I'm anti-monarchist, so it's all good to me, but would like to discuss it. fwiw, I grew up in the UK but immigrated to Canada as an adult.

@NiceGerbil

'They seem to believe if they ask even questions meant to help the reader understand these kinds of basic background elements, or ask any questions at all, it's bigotry'

So in summary.

Nothing newsworthy.
Some of the kids may have been abused but meh.
Don't know what all the fuss is about children died all the time back then (there are still people alive who went to them!).
The media are making stuff up same as the indigenous prior people are prone to doing
The media are scared to ask the proper questions about... Something to do with this. Because they don't want to be accused of racism.

I think that's about it.

You have a really remarkable way of twisting what people say to what you would like to hear.

@NiceGerbil

'For example - how were the graveyards found? How did we know about them?'

They used ground penetrating radar.

That's been in pretty much every news item I just read.

No, they didn't. Again, you actually don't know what you are talking about.

It is worth noting that it was extremely common back in the day to note a diagnosis of TB for most children coming into orphanages, residential schools and other "care of the state" facilities.
The vast majority of children were never actually medically diagnosed, but it provided a convenient way of not having to put any additional time or resources into investigating cause of death. Any other unknown maladies could also be attributed to TB this way, and saved on medication costs.

TB is, and has been, an issue in Indigenous communities, but the residential school staff would have been keeling over in their droves too if the figures recorded for kids with TB were accurate. Unsurprisingly, the staff were not keeling over in droves.

@PoleToPole

It is worth noting that it was extremely common back in the day to note a diagnosis of TB for most children coming into orphanages, residential schools and other "care of the state" facilities. The vast majority of children were never actually medically diagnosed, but it provided a convenient way of not having to put any additional time or resources into investigating cause of death. Any other unknown maladies could also be attributed to TB this way, and saved on medication costs.

TB is, and has been, an issue in Indigenous communities, but the residential school staff would have been keeling over in their droves too if the figures recorded for kids with TB were accurate. Unsurprisingly, the staff were not keeling over in droves.

Possibly, and it's true they didn't have the capacity to do x-rays and such.

On the other hand, Dr Bryce, who was noted for trying to get the kids out of the schools for health reasons, and whose records are used as evidence in other cases, reported that every child he examined showed signs of tb. He wasn't trying to justify the bad conditions, at all.
So - do we trust those records to be truthful, within the confines of the way he was able to work, or not? The general consensus seems to be that we do.

As far as I know no one argues that in most of these institutions had terrible conditions for health. They were underfunded terribly so food and shelter were inadequate, and often the children worked very hard. We also know that as in many institutions for children, there was significant abuse, although not all students had that kind of experience either.

But we really just don't know that murdering kids was a common thing. There isn't really any reason, yet, to think that's the explanation. We will probably know more in a year.

So so far, new information here is really really minimal. And maybe a lot of people haven't been following it, though it has been prominent in the news for some years, as well as in drama and books.

So there is something very strange about the fact that at this moment, people are now burning down buildings, and pushing down statures, and calling out their neighbours on FB. It looks a lot more like other things that have been going on than it seems to be a real response to what's been found.

Thinking 150000 children being removed from their families.

Put in schools where they were abused physically and sexually.

Where they lived in squalid conditions and died at a disproportionate rate.

And all the other stuff.

Thinking that is bad is 'woke'? Or it's not true? Or at least it's not true that anything media worthy happened?

I'm... ???

It's all a fuss about nothing, is the essence of your post I think.

What about the removing the children in the first place?

What's your view on that?

Removing children, sexual and physical abuse, Beating them when they spoke their own languages as forcing them to speak English resulting in a loss and disconnect to their culture.
Its also considered a factor in intergenerational poverty and substance abuse.

Queen Victoria by all reports was a awful woman who ruled over her children with an iron fist. (Children who she didn’t like anyway) Is it a loss to have less statues to your colonial past?

“…colonization and its after effects are not dying out, simply presented in different forms.”

So pulling down a couple of bits of shaped metal is job done then? Well done.

This. It's pathetic - as if pulling down a few statues is going to make a difference. People who destroy things are lacking in intelligence.

'People who destroy things are lacking in intelligence.'

Like the suffragettes?

In various parts of the world they burn the American flag, as it symbolic of the country which always seems to cause outrage. Here, if they burn our flag, I think people are less bothered by it. Statues are being toppled, and in retaliation totems are being burnt. Feelings are running very high, and I would prefer that energy is put on making the government bring any surviving perps to justice and making sure this never happens again. I’d like to see money invested more in First Nation areas to promote and nurture their culture. It won’t undo what has gone before, but discussions with community leaders on rebuilding trust and communities is essential.

I am outraged at this scandalous treatment of humans, particularly children and I point the finger at organised religion, particularly the Catholic Church for (yet again) not taking action to avoid create a scandal, when then the real scandal was happening in their name. Same level of horror that went on in Ireland, and children’s homes and orphanages everywhere. We need to stand together and look out for each other more. Do not be a spectator for unfairness in society.

I don't care particularly, am just very glad that England no longer has an empire.

I am more outraged by the way children of the First Nations, in Canada were treated. I did know something about that but not the extent. It is sobering - and heartbreaking. Similar things happened all over the world.

Let's do our best to make sure they don't happen again!

I hope President Biden has released those South American children that Trump caged, that they are reunited with family if at all possible and/or go on to a better life.

I am afraid I do not care.

Considering the revelations, I don't blame them.

I don't care.

I have been chatting to a couple of Canadian friends about this, who are outraged and upset.

To answer the OP's question I am puzzled about why topple Queen Elizabeth 2nd statues, but other than that, their country.

I think more needs to be done and certainly not left the Catholic church to once again try and hide this. Its not like this was done hundreds of years ago, some of the people involved are still alive and within the Catholic Church, and while not all schools were Catholic, it seems like they were a pushing force for doing it along with the government at the time.

If I have said anything that is incorrect, feel free to correct me, but that is what both Canadian friends have said to me.

Im appalled by the daily murders of indigenous women which barely get reported in the media let alone investigated..

These woman matter and nobody cares...

Statues... couldn't care less 😏

@MegaCityOne

I do not think anyone is burning totem poles in Canada in retaliation. We consider them valuable works of art with great cultural significance.

Ok, I just read that some idiots did light a totem pole on fire. And more idiots tore down the statue of James Cook and threw it in Victoria Harbour.

Despite the legitimate grievances of our First Nations people, there is more going on and that is frightening.

I always disagree with pulling down statutes.

If the person the statue is based on is genuinely problematic, there will always be a museum who will take it, or failing that, the local council can melt it down and commission a replacement of something that means more to the community.

Pulling down statues is just mob mentality behaviour.

Pulling down a statue of a living person such as the Queen is just disrespectful.

I've never really understood the point of the Commonwealth (I can just about understand why we still have a Royal Family in the UK, but we're a tiny, tiny, increasingly irrelevant island these days) but I'm not entirely sure why Queen Elizabeth II is to blame for any of the crimes uncovered. She's just an old lady.

I think it also distracts from the message that people were presumably trying to get out.

@Susannahmoody

Was it Queen Vic's fault that those kids died?

Or the RC Church?

QV was in power when residential school first operated (and for a good many years, too)

Yes, it is the fault of the RC church. It was mostly priests and nuns and other people of the RC church who ran the residential schools and carried out the abuse.

@Mandalay246

“…colonization and its after effects are not dying out, simply presented in different forms.”

So pulling down a couple of bits of shaped metal is job done then? Well done.

This. It's pathetic - as if pulling down a few statues is going to make a difference. People who destroy things are lacking in intelligence.

I think that's an awful thing to say. I would suggest you read up on residential schools, why they were set up, how they operated, and the abuse that went on it them as well as the legacy created with the survivors who were so traumatized they couldn't lead normal lives. Many of them were not treated as children should be and therefore did not know how to treat their own children when they had them, thus going on to treat their children in the same way they were treated in the schools . Many couldn't live with their demons so committed suicide whilst others turned to drugs or alcohol, and often crime. This led to a cliché of "Indians being lazy drunks" with very few people understanding, or even being interested in, the reasons why they struggled so much with day to day life.

@QueenBee52

How can you say that indigenous women are being murdered everyday and no one cares?

That is simply not true. We had a national inquiry. The issue is and has been debated extensively. Canada does care, a great deal.

I could write an essay, but I won't.

It suffices to say that violence against all women is a travesty, and indigenous woman have higher rates of domestic violence and the violence that drug addiction and working in sex trades brings.

That is yet another consequence of the damage done to family systems by residential schools and all the other negative social influences.

But people absolutely care. You can read much about it on the Internet.

It’s ridiculous and offensive.

It wasn’t either of those Queens who treated indigenous people badly. I’m not a monarchist but tearing down statues is so disrespectful and ignorant.

A pathetic act.

Couldn't care less.

What the hell are you talking about Ophanim? I merely pointed out that pulling down statues does not help redress the wrongs of previous generations - why is it "an awful thing to say" that people who destroy said statues are lacking in intelligence, as they are.

I know perfectly well about residential schools and how people were - and indeed still are - treated. This is in the news in my country at the moment, and I also live in a country which was subject to colonisation. Your post ranting at me actually makes no sense whatsoever regarding what I said.