So, british mumsnet, how do you feel about statues of Queen Victorian and QEII torn down in Canada?

[Evangeli]

www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57693683

While we're talking about statues, curious to hear opinions on this. Are you shocked, outraged or just "meh"? I feel this is different from the slaver captain who was torn down last year (in Plymouth?) or the military/politician men who have been toppling across Canada- it feels even more iconoclastic?

Personally I'm anti-monarchist, so it's all good to me, but would like to discuss it. fwiw, I grew up in the UK but immigrated to Canada as an adult.

'It’s a destructive act, not done in a democratic way. That’s not a civilised way to do things.'

I don't understand this at all. The use of the word 'civilised' given the context is an interesting choice.

'The equivalent here would be going around smashing Roman busts a la Taliban for example- because they were slave-owning colonists'

There have been recent mass grave discoveries though.

I don't understand how it's like getting angry at the Romans tbh.

'The discovery of unmarked Indigenous graves on the eve of the 1 July Canada Day holiday has prompted calls for national celebrations to be cancelled.

The remains of 182 people near the grounds of a former residential school in British Columbia were found by the Lower Kootenay Band on Wednesday.

The discovery adds to a rising tally of unmarked grave sites across Canada.'

In the news yesterday.

'St Eugene's was operated by the Catholic Church from 1912 until the early 1970s. It was one of more than 130 compulsory boarding schools funded by the Canadian government and run by religious authorities during the 19th and 20th Centuries with the aim of forcibly assimilating indigenous youth.'

'In May, the remains of 215 Indigenous children were found in unmarked graves in Kamloops, British Columbia. Then last week, leaders for the Cowessess First Nation said the remains of 751 bodies, most of them children, were discovered at the former site of another school in Saskatchewan.'

@Wearywithteens unfortunately it's true, we even have a high school named after a particularly unsavoury member of the current royal family. A petition was circulated to have it changed but it fizzled out.

@Sittingonabench I agree that maybe the reason behind the "meh" is that people feel so far removed from what they consider purely Canadian issues- and I would say that's a problem with the education - maybe with better historical education in the UK, people could better appreciate the global extent of the atrocities? I did "A" level in history back in the 90s- it was ALL WW1 and WWII and some American history, nothing about British colonialism as far as I remember, apart from cursory mentions. I learned about that mostly at university and later in life.

I’m British and IDGAF.

Canada, Australia, NZ etc etc should grow up, bin the monarchy and become republics with one of their own citizens elected as head of state. Having a geriatric English woman’s face on their banknotes is a humiliating throwback to the past.

@NiceGerbil I know the word "civilized" jumped out at me too,

And not like Romans at all. As mentioned QEII is still very much alive and present on the public stage, which is why I feel this particular statue-pulling is different from the others. It's moving closer. It's not historic anymore.

It does feel different in the sense that the monarch is meant to be a symbol of the state rather than her own self, so it seems a bit like flag burning in the US.

And I think that's an accurate appraisal. I'm in Canada, and I think the public mood here right now is really bad, maybe even a tinderbox. It could become very ugly quickly, and the people who should be presenting a rational influence are choosing not to do so. So anything like this that enflames the situation more is not a good thing.

@GirlAloud Honesly it surprises me that they don't. I think the association with the British monarchy gives the white, Anglophone population of Canada who have historically had the most power a semblance of tradition, ceremony and history that they would otherwise not have? But yes it's odd and embarrassing.

Thank you for pointing this out. I read the news most days but had not come across this. The anger and grief of those who pulled the statues down is understandable.

@SmokedDuck I agree that it feels very tinder-boxy and I am thankful C-day was muted or mostly canceled yesterday. What you would consider "rational influences"? Are you thinking of Indigenous elders and leaders? That they should "calm" things down?

Monarchy represents unearned privilege and the idea that some are worth more than others simply because of their birth. It has no place in a modern society IMO.

I think pulling them down is silly, but so is having them in the first place. So I'm quite meh.

Thinking about it, isn't there something about QE2 and PP visiting Kamloops and children being taken away at the same time. Perhaps that's led to her statue being pulled down rather than anti colonialism. That's been around for years.

@Mummyof2andapig

You seem a bit disappointed that people don’t care. I have a feeling this thread didn’t go the way you were hoping

True. I think the op was trying to whip up outrage and it hasn't worked.

@GirlAloud

I’m British and IDGAF.

Canada, Australia, NZ etc etc should grow up, bin the monarchy and become republics with one of their own citizens elected as head of state. Having a geriatric English woman’s face on their banknotes is a humiliating throwback to the past.

I agree but only if that's what they want. NZ didn't take the union flag off their own flag fairly recently. It's up to their own citizens if they are happy with the Queen as their ceremonial head of state. Actually I'd quite like a referendum on it here in the UK, too... never going to happen though!

I've visited some of the (already known) graveyards myself. Graves marked 'Baby - 1 year old' or 'Girl aged 5-6' etc.

Make no mistake, this was a genocide (and its about time Canada properly acknowledged that).

I dont give two hoots about the statues.

It's anger, grief, horror, rage.

These were atrocities.

People around the world often do much worse when angry. Rioting looting. Storming the white House. Burning things down. Etc etc.

I mean it's a couple of statues. Why that would be considered wrong, uncivilised, self righteous etc in the face of what it's a reaction to, I don't understand that.

Given the recent findings around these “schools” I’m not sure I can blame them for taking down a couple of statues

I can’t even begin to think about what it’s like to be in that situation

@MillionBells No, I wasn't trying to "whip up outrage", I would simply post about Meghan Markle if I wanted to do that. But as I admitted, I was expecting there to be more outrage, and I was surprised at the "meh" attitude.
As it so happens, people on this thread who don't seem to have an inexplicable sneery resentment have a lot of interesting things to say on the topic, so I am glad I posted the news article.

I didn’t know about it. What’s the reason? Are they wanting to get rid of the royal family there?

I would like a republic myself, so I’m not offended but why just Victoria and Elizabeth II?

I also agree with pps about the indigenous children’s graves.

It kind of seems like the monarchy are an easy scapegoat for these horrific acts tbh.

@Nandakanda

I think it’s a fucked up attempt to misrepresent history.

Statues represent part of a place’s history and knocking them down will change absolutely nothing.

The equivalent here would be going around smashing Roman busts a la Taliban for example- because they were slave-owning colonists. It’s more about self-righteousness than anything else.

The territory now known as Canada was for a short period a colony of France and the UK, and many of the people now living there are descended from colonists. Nothing will ever change that.

I agree with this.

I don't think vandalising or removing them serves any purpose.

They were people of their time for good or ill and I think it's important not to "erase" either.

I don't think removing the statue of someone supporting the slave trade is appropriate because it destroys the evidence of how those people became successful/rich and thus erases not just their history but that of those they exploited.

I'd much rather see such statues contextualised by having information sited next to them that gave a frank review of their lives and allowed people to discuss and debate.

In addition I'd also like to see more statues commissioned going forward of both women and people of colour who are very poorly represented in this medium despite their being many excellent candidates to pay tribute to in this way.

@PastMyBestBeforeDate I didn't see that! From the news article it sounded like QV was the main target, and QEII statue was pulled down because it happened to be there.

I don't think as a person, QEII would have ever been in a position to realistically "do anything" about colonialism or Indigenous children, but as a public figure, she represents that regime and so she's fair game, as it were. QV is different.

That's true HadEnough It fits well with the idea of defending the oppressed but many of the protestors may need to look at the votes their grandparents cast. And Justin Trudeau may need to look at the policies of his father's government.

I don't much care for the destruction of statues as it comes too close to the re-writing of history for me to be comfortable with, but I do feel their place is in a historical context - i.e a museum, rather than being displayed as something to be celebrated. The mass grave of children though is something that is deserving of lasting recognition, and carries way more weight than the effigy of a distant monarch.