To think prejudice against low intelligence is a big problem.

[Bluebirdsflyover]

I just read a thread on here about the tour de France crash and that woman who caused it.

Now, the woman was culpable for sure, regardless of what you think is a proportionate punishment.
But some of the comments (in fact the vast majority of the comments) were along the lines of:

“She deserves what’s coming to her, stupid woman”

“Nobody is THAT thick”

“I’m glad she will be made an example of, bloody idiot”

And so on.

Like it never crossed anybody’s MIND that some people are actually not as quick witted as others? Some people just aren’t that bright. That they don’t deserve to be punished for that?

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not making any assumptions about the woman’s cognitive ability, hell we ALL make mistakes, even those who have been to flipping Harvard, and often big ones. Mostly we are lucky and they are not broadcast to the whole world.

If was the way people on that post used perceived intelligence (or lack thereof) as a justification for vindictive retribution that really bothered me.

Cruel people and actions - punish them.
Malicious people and actions- punish them.
Spiteful, sadistic, abusive, coercive, etc etc - punish them all!
‘Stupidness’ (for lack of a better word... it’s quite telling we haven’t really got a world for low intelligence or poor judgement that isn’t derogatory)... should it be punished?
I don’t think so.

Our absolute distain for people who are deemed to act in a ‘stupid’ way is testament, I think, to deeply prejudicial attitudes about intelligence.

@mustlovegin

Without exception, people who victim-blame have an inherent deficiency coupled with nauseating smugness yet with an astonishing lack of introspection

I agree with you, OP. It's an epidemic

The victim here are the injured cyclists, not the placard lady. Let's be clear about this and not twist things

I wasn't actually talking of the TDF placard-lady when I was referring to victim-blaming. In that I'm talking of any one of a dozen threads on Mumsnet where blaming the victim (nearly always a woman, oddly enough) is very much in evidence.

@strawberrydonuts

I wouldn't assume that the person who caused the Tour de France crash had a learning disability.

I don't think she should be prosecuted for it, though. They should have had barriers and stewards in place to stop people from doing this. If anything it's the fault of the event organisers that this was allowed to happen.

The route is over 2,000 miles. That would require an awful lot of barriers.

And I think if someone does something grossly negligent that injures others, prosecutions should follow.

[quote Walkaround]@DrSbaitso - “ Yes, I saw stills like that and also assumed she took another step, but from the video it looks as though she didn't walk any further than that and it was her sign that caught the poor guy.

I couldn't agree more that she should have stood somewhere else and did something incredibly dumb! You don't wave even your flimsy cardboard sign in the road in front of the Tour de France, especially while not looking at the riders! It's just that in the rush to label how stupid she was, a fair number of people seem to believe she did something even more egregiously and extremely stupid than she did. In context of the OP's question, that's interesting.”
Interesting as in she clearly had the intelligence not to put herself in any danger, but was too bloody selfish to give a toss about the cyclists she shoved a large sign in front of?! That justifies more anger at the crass stupidity of the action, not less. If she had put herself in front of the cyclists like that she would either have been suicidal or deranged, not stupid.[/quote]
I'm not trivialising what happened or how the cyclists suffered, but I think you are attributing a level of aforethought that isn't there.

@DrSbaitso - no I’m not, I’m calling someone who has the forethought not to put themselves in harm’s way but who doesn’t have the forethought to consider others a selfish and crass person.

It’s a bit like the difference between dropping a brick on a passing train versus standing on the track in front of the train.

This is so interesting, many points of view I hadn’t considered.

The points about intentionality vs impact are fascinating, and the emphasis of our justice system on punishment rather than rehabilitation.

I also totally take on board that my link between foolinsh actions (e.g. bike lady) and intelligence is a leap.

I think my example was a bad choice actually. It’s just the event that got me thinking about it.

I think it might all come down to language?
The people howling for her blood didn’t (for the most part) criticize her careless or thoughtless or ignorant or selfish - which are all bad things and just criticisms.

They majority called her idiotic/stupid/thick/dumb - which is not in my view a ‘bad thing’ but the way these words were used against her instead of the more accurate criticisms I mentioned earlier shows, I think, our prejudiced attitudes towards the less intelligent (regardless of the actual mental capacity of the lady in question, who none of us know).

Name change fail - the previous post is me!

The people howling for her blood didn’t (for the most part) criticize her careless or thoughtless or ignorant or selfish - which are all bad things and just criticisms.

Every one of those words has been used to describe her in this thread! And yes, stupid. She was all of the above. They are all negatives, I still don't see why you are fixated on the use of one of them in particular.

Would it not be intelligent to ride a bike watching where you are going, and allowing for stopping distance case of the unexpected?

What the ......???? It's a bike race, not a leisurely ride through the countryside looking at the scenery.

They majority called her idiotic/stupid/thick/dumb - which is not in my view a ‘bad thing’

I think more people are using stupid in the sender that she did a stupid thing, rather than making a comment on her intelligence. Doing a stupid thing is pretty much a synonym for carelessness/foolishness/thoughtlessness.

I'm not sure why you think saying she was ignorant is preferable to saying she was stupid. To me it's a much harsher insult, implying a level of personal culpability that stupid doesn't.

Ny opinion is that it's evolutional. If people made mistakes that put the rest of the group at risk, those people would have serious consequences. Possibly even banishment.

We're animals driven by a need to survive first and foremost.

strawberrydonuts
I wouldn't assume that the person who caused the Tour de France crash had a learning disability.

I don't think she should be prosecuted for it, though. They should have had barriers and stewards in place to stop people from doing this. If anything it's the fault of the event organisers that this was allowed to happen.
*The route is over 2,000 miles. That would require an awful lot of barriers.

And I think if someone does something grossly negligent that injures others, prosecutions should follow.*

Yes it's too long got barriers but It's clearly extremely dangerous to have 1000's of people standing right next to that many bikes going that fast! Maybe just a space between the route & where the spectators stand clearly marked would help? They could just paint a line on the ground?

(Too long FOR barriers)

Had there been any indication that this woman had some sort of cognitive issue or mental impairment, I think most people would have been asking things like why was she let down by whoever was meant to be taking care of her. And how was this allowed to happen. And since she disappeared, a very extensive search for her own safety would have been started.

But there wasn't. She was able to make the sign, get herself there, position herself where she knew she would be seen, move to get in the camera shot and wave the sign around.

She then left the scene and managed to hide for quite a while.

Stupid is the correct word for what she did. Stupid, idiot etc is NOT the correct word for someone with a mental impairment.

Since we can't let people put others in danger, it appears OP is suggesting vast amounts of people who don't show good judgement need to isolated away from society, just in case. Should everyone have a competency test to prove they make decent decisions before we allow them out, unsupervised? Or just turn a blind eye when poor judgement has big consequences.

Op doesn't think poor judgment should be punished, in any circumstances. But i bet they would be saying very different things, if someone showed poor judgment and killed someone they loved.

@AmIPeriOrAreYouJustAnnoying

strawberrydonuts I wouldn't assume that the person who caused the Tour de France crash had a learning disability.

I don't think she should be prosecuted for it, though. They should have had barriers and stewards in place to stop people from doing this. If anything it's the fault of the event organisers that this was allowed to happen.
*The route is over 2,000 miles. That would require an awful lot of barriers.

And I think if someone does something grossly negligent that injures others, prosecutions should follow.*

Yes it's too long got barriers but It's clearly extremely dangerous to have 1000's of people standing right next to that many bikes going that fast! Maybe just a space between the route & where the spectators stand clearly marked would help? They could just paint a line on the ground?

Or maybe people going to watch the tour de France would just know what it is and not stand so close.

You know, have some responsibility for themselves.

Being stupid in this situation and many others is nothing to do with lacking intelligence, it's more about poor judgement and lack of common sense. People are rightly judged by their actions when they impact negatively on others.
That's different from calling a child stupid because they're not good at maths (clearly unacceptable).

Yes it's too long got barriers but It's clearly extremely dangerous to have 1000's of people standing right next to that many bikes going that fast! Maybe just a space between the route & where the spectators stand clearly marked would help? They could just paint a line on the ground?

The length of the route this year is just over 3400 kilometers……..so that would need 6800 km of line …

There are (initially at least) the best part of 200 hundred riders doing the Tour and it’s run on a variety of roads some of them quite narrow and often where is is no pavement.

It’s also not unknown for riders in extreme circumstances for the riders to have to take to the grass verge, if there is one.

The onus has always been for the spectators to be aware of what is going on and be ready to move PDQ away from edge of the tarmac..you can see that those who were actually paying attention did exactly that as the crash unfolded, and there’s also video of a Mum dragging her child out of the way during a crash later on during that stage.

What you don’t do is stand with your back to the traffic, with a foot on the tarmac, holding out a projecting sign………….

I think there is a public intolerance of lack of common sense.

But intelligence? Honesty I think overt stupidity is absolutely lauded.

We’re living in an anti-intellectual age, in my view.

She's turned herself in. Aged 30. Lives nearby, is in custody at a police station in Landerneau.

I see it all the time on here - people have no problem describing people as 'thick' or 'sounding thick' but use it as a moral judgement they are 'no good'. Posters will insist 'everyone knows...' I often think they must have lived a sheltered to life to not realise that as much are there will high IQs there are also those with low and it means nothing about their morality.

@MissTrip82

I think there is a public intolerance of lack of common sense.

But intelligence? Honesty I think overt stupidity is absolutely lauded.

We’re living in an anti-intellectual age, in my view.

Agreed. Every time someone starts a thread on here about intelligence, general knowledge or academic ability, it’s full of ridiculous claims about how their cousin who has a PhD can’t tie his own shoelaces, and that it’s quite normal to be woefully under-informed.

The thing is, OP, that you’re confusing calling someone “thick” or “stupid” in themselves, with people using a kind of shorthand to describe the actions of this woman. I didn’t read the reports of the crash and think that people were questioning her mental abilities, rather the momentary lapse which led her to think it’d be ok to step out in front of a speeding peloton!
Context is everything - and to deliberately misinterpret the intention of the comments is disingenuous, really.
FWIW, I believe that most people are really very tolerant and kind towards those within our society who have reduced mental capacity...

I agree OP and I think MN can be one of the worst places for calling people 'stupid' 'ignorant' etc..

I got asked the other week if I was non English speaking because I had a different opinion to some one else

@AmIPeriOrAreYouJustAnnoying

strawberrydonuts I wouldn't assume that the person who caused the Tour de France crash had a learning disability.

I don't think she should be prosecuted for it, though. They should have had barriers and stewards in place to stop people from doing this. If anything it's the fault of the event organisers that this was allowed to happen.
*The route is over 2,000 miles. That would require an awful lot of barriers.

And I think if someone does something grossly negligent that injures others, prosecutions should follow.*

Yes it's too long got barriers but It's clearly extremely dangerous to have 1000's of people standing right next to that many bikes going that fast! Maybe just a space between the route & where the spectators stand clearly marked would help? They could just paint a line on the ground?

It's also very dangerous to have people walking along pavements or even the side of the road where there are no pavements, in a 50/60mph road or country lane. There are no barriers, or additional markings other than the edge of the pavement itself. But I don't see people walking out into the traffic, as they can understand the consequences of just stepping out into the road when there are vehicles coming along at high speed.

@Mandalay246

Would it not be intelligent to ride a bike watching where you are going, and allowing for stopping distance case of the unexpected?

What the ......???? It's a bike race, not a leisurely ride through the countryside looking at the scenery.

Yes I thought that original comment was very apt, given the subject of the thread

Then I gave the poster the benefit of the doubt and assumed they were joking