Trying not to be a twat and failing

[Merryoldgoat]

I’m in a bit of a quandary. I’m recruiting for a maternity cover role in my department. I used to be a bit of a twit about grammar and spelling in CVS and application forms but I’m trying to be less arseholeish about it - I think it’s divisive and ignores how language devils over time etc.

But Christ - the stuff I’m getting is killing me. Is not really grammar or spelling per se, more… turn of phrase?

I’ve had people ‘passionate about numeracy and management accounts’, wanting to ‘further assist [my] establishment’ and ‘convey all my abilities in the different facets of your organisation’.

All this weird language - why? Who is advising people so poorly?

My old-fashioned CV still does the job - I just what to know: what do you want to do and what can you do?

The poor grammar and spelling combined with the strange language is making it nearly impossible to hire anyone.

Am I unlucky? Or is this it? These candidates span 20s to 40s so it’s not generational.

I’m finding that as soon as I start reading a cover letter that hasn’t told me exactly why they’re applying for the job and why they are a good candidate in a paragraph I want to sling it in the bin but I feel like a twat.

What do I do? Just interview regardless? Or try again?

@MerryDecembermas

I can understand that - it’s just no one is passionate about accounting.

Even accountants 🤣

I think the grammar and spelling matters. If they can't pay enough attention to that, how could you trust them with anybody's accounts??

If they can do the work you need them to do, and you like them at interview, I'd try to overlook - otherwise you might end up unintentionally reinforcing class privilege and recruiting in your own image, rather than going for the best candidates

Just caught sight of this paragraph properly - my ‘own image’ is a mixed race women from a council estate who grew up in poverty on benefits.

@Merryoldgoat no, I think she really wanted the job. She became a vet nurse in a small animal practice instead. The funny thing is, the applicant/recruiter were almost identical in what their hobbies were, how they spoke face to face, levels of intelligence etc. They would have worked together brilliantly, neither has any fear of the big animals they own.

I think it's because when being taught to write a cv or covering letter your advised to big it up, stand out, personalise it to the company your applying to blah blah blah.

And also I guess because saying I don't like where I am currently working anymore, the work is too much for how little I get paid and I'm looking for something different/better (Bridget Jones Style) doesn't go down too well on a covering letter.

OP a lot of qualified accountants won’t have looked at double entry at all. The qualification has stretched at the top end to include Big Data, blockchain, crypto etc and the basics are being missed at the bottom end.
I think you’d be better looking for AAT candidates.

I work in the media and fuck me, the CVs I get are a sight to behold. More often than not, they’re unintentionally hilarious and I long to be able to share them with others. Of course I don’t, but I do memorise some of the more colourful parts.

I think the problem is, is that trends and the latest thinking on ‘what people want when recruiting’ in constantly changing. Not only that, it’s different in every industry and while Sally over there wants one concise sheet of A4 with no waffle, Trevor over there wants as much information as possible as his interview process is less involved.

However, one thing I think we can all agree on is a decent use of language without a load of meaningless bollocks that is supposed to sound impressive; it only smacks of naivety. English isn’t my first language and I’ve had to work so hard to get it right, that my threshold for poor spelling, punctuation and grammar is very, very low.

I think we can also agree that we want no photographs, but tell that to the young things applying for jobs with me, all with Uber-glamorous professional photos attached 😫

@PacifyLulu

I am looking for AAT! That’s what I’ve asked for but I’m getting CCAB PQ candidates too.

But surely you can’t get past intro CCAB levels without solid double entry?

How else can you properly evaluate the accounts being audited?

I grew up working class myself / first generation to uni and am now middle class I’d say, but I think I learned a lot through the ‘social osmosis’ PacificState mentions when I was at Cambridge (well, osmosis and outright mocking). I work at an ex-poly now and see tonnes of the writing you describe in the students I recruit who are intelligent and earnest but, as you say, clearly getting terrible advice at CV writing. IME it’s definitely most pronounced in the working class / first generation at uni students and I see it much less (or at least done more ‘elegantly’ as a pp put it as the advice to stick in endless keywords and OTT adjectives has a lot to answer for) in the middle class ones. Interesting about the pp who found it across classes though; maybe it is just the way things are going. I hate it too, though! Good luck with your recruitment :)

OP loads of people are exempt from the basic book keeping foundation modules so get to skip them, Iv worked with loads of accountants that have no idea about double entry. Iv also noticed that the ACCA work experience element is so fluffy now that you don't even need to be in a finance role to achieve the experience.

best personal statement excerpt EVER
"I am a passionate vegetarian"

The job was absolutely nothing about cooking, gardening, nutrition or anything remotely relevant.

Applicants really can't win, though. So many employers do want all of the business-speak rubbish, and will ask why you want the job, clearly expecting you to overenthuse about how you've always dreamed, since you were 3 years old, of being an assistant junior accountant in Basingstoke working towards AAT certification and spending all day running vlookup reports, rather than giving the actual main answer that you have bills to pay and living costs to meet and you've identified this as a suitable and liveable-with way to achieve that.

If you go in bold and straight-speaking, you might really impress an employer, but it will earn you an instant strike out from others - and you have no way of knowing which kind of employer (or anywhere in the middle) they are.

@Misty999

That is really helpful - thank you. And what a shower of arse. No wonder none of our auditors ever find anything. I run a tight ship but there’s definitely stuff to see if you look properly.

I know the PERs are a bit fuzzy now. My current accountant is very good technically but is something goes ‘wrong’ she’s a bit at sea (but getting better). I think you only get good at this stuff if you have proper ‘on the ground’ experience.

But I digress. Thank you for the many helpful replies. Lots to think about and a few new approaches too.

Just pasting the words that are in the ad are pointless unless you show how you have shown how you have used those skills in an actual workplace/ school or any other place. I did so and so and there was a good outcome because …

Understanding the concept of double entry is one thing but actually putting together a series of journals is something else. I agree with a pp re so many people having exemptions that they miss the T accounts.

However, I like you and if I was at that level I’d want a job with you.

@PacifyLulu me?

If you mean me then I’m very flattered and that’s a very nice thing to say.

I genuinely try not to be a dick most if the time and really value good staff.

If you don’t mean me then pretend this post doesn’t exist!

Well, unis and schools don't know what the fuck they're doing when it comes to CVS tbh. I graduated in 2016 and got no help. We're told to stand out, be original, sound intelligent. Nobody teaches about online filters etc. So yeah I think you're being a bit of a snob. Look at the qualifications.

Although you want an assistant and most young people with the quals will be going for big firms and becoming accountants themselves. So, maybe lower your standards and be willing to train a bit. What are you paying? Under £45k? Anyone with a degree in Finance will be looking at £40-65k on a grad degree (partner did this).

Can I ask, do you find that there are a significant number of qualified accountants and technicians who are unable to do their double entry?

I'm a little lost on this bit (and there's more posts on double entry). Accounting packages do all this for you. There's no need for manual recording of transactions. Yes, knowing your debits and credits is necessary, as is understanding how packages work and post transactions (ie sub ledgers and what not) but I have not seen manual book keeping in a business in the last 20 odd years.

I would find it extremely odd if an accountant interview covered this.

Grad scheme* not degree. Sorry, I just don't know anyone my age who did finance/accounting who is on less than £50k. And I'm 26... most are on £70k with benefits and bonus.

(I am not lol, I did a passion degree)

What does your ad say? If you want GL and reconciliation experience, then spell that out clearly and ask for a cover letter with examples relevant to the job description. If you want higher level analysis, people are going to skip that they are proficient with the basics as that would be taken as a given.

Limit the cover letter requirement of one page and you'll reduce waffly statements as there won't be enough space to cover off suitability to role description with examples.

@k1233

The ad is very clear. And yes, the package does a lot but you need to know what you’re doing.

I have had from fully AAT qualified and some CCAB PQ accountants.

Inability to post payroll journals - debits on BS and credits on expense accounts.

Not understanding how to dispose of a fixed asset.

Not understanding the difference between a prepayment and accrual.

Not being able to do basic balance sheet reconciliations.

When I say know double entry I mean know your debits and credits. I’m not asking for someone to keep bid red manual ledgers! But if I say ‘can you prepay this over the next 4 months’ I want them to know instantly what those journals look like and enter them.

I'm totally with you on everything you said - and I am a complete pedant about all things SPAG (plus the 'turn of phrase' crap you quoted).

BUT - a PP mentioned upthread that this is quite ableist - and actually I wonder if in an accountancy role, the literacy is less relevant? I have an autistic DS and he sometimes writes the strangest things in his English work at school - maybe not unlike the things you've quoted above? Using overly expansive words to make a point, or some quite exaggerated and fanciful descriptions etc.

I doubt he will end up working anywhere that requires concise written reports - but he's good at computers and maths. I think he may be highly likely to write weird things like that in a covering letter - and so I'm now thinking that YA perhaps BU on that point?

That said - they still need to explain why they can do the job and provide evidence........

I think this is where public sector jobs are so much easier to apply for than private as they all provide a tick list of what to say on your application. They also include a salary range. I'm not going to apply for a job when I have no idea if it will pay enough. Saying 'Salary subject to Experience' just seems a pointless waste of everyone's time. Not that relevant to the OP though!

@Teenagehorrorbag

I’m not sure if you read my posts but there is quite a lot of direct correspondence with professional and statutory bodies, customers and our auditors as well as a fair bit of back and forth with suppliers.

I have had a conversation with an old manager this evening who is one of those Oxbridge high-flyer types that I’m deffo not cut out to be. I wanted to talk this through with her as she’s an old hand.

She said that this role is the one that gives her the biggest headache when recruiting so I'm going to have a rethink on a few things.

@CorianderBee re: graduate schemes. I don’t know of any that would pay £45k before quals for accountancy - EY and Deloitte are more like £30k for Audit and Assurance and the salary for this role is comparable to that. The grad schemes for financial consulting and banking may well be higher but if you want to do that, this isn’t a job you’d ever consider regardless of salary.

There are lots of careers in Finance and ‘accountants’ are ubiquitous. But my area of expertise is the least sexy and most modestly paid (although perfectly respectable money) and not the kind of role people like your peers would look at as something to strive for.

@superduster

I fucking hate opaque salaries - mine has a salary range stated.

I once interviewed at a well known retailer who wanted to pay me 30% less than the going rate because of the profile of the company. They didn’t advertise salary and if they had I’d not have applied.