Trying not to be a twat and failing

[Merryoldgoat]

I’m in a bit of a quandary. I’m recruiting for a maternity cover role in my department. I used to be a bit of a twit about grammar and spelling in CVS and application forms but I’m trying to be less arseholeish about it - I think it’s divisive and ignores how language devils over time etc.

But Christ - the stuff I’m getting is killing me. Is not really grammar or spelling per se, more… turn of phrase?

I’ve had people ‘passionate about numeracy and management accounts’, wanting to ‘further assist [my] establishment’ and ‘convey all my abilities in the different facets of your organisation’.

All this weird language - why? Who is advising people so poorly?

My old-fashioned CV still does the job - I just what to know: what do you want to do and what can you do?

The poor grammar and spelling combined with the strange language is making it nearly impossible to hire anyone.

Am I unlucky? Or is this it? These candidates span 20s to 40s so it’s not generational.

I’m finding that as soon as I start reading a cover letter that hasn’t told me exactly why they’re applying for the job and why they are a good candidate in a paragraph I want to sling it in the bin but I feel like a twat.

What do I do? Just interview regardless? Or try again?

@LobotomisedIceSkatingFan

You are so right. I don’t want a passionate accountant - just a competent one.

@Beancounter1

I think you are right!

[quote Merryoldgoat]@OrrisRoot

A personal statement is fine obviously but I thought it should be a précis of your skills, quals and experience? None of the ones I have read give any clue about them - just say things like ‘looking for a role where I can uniquely contribute to a dynamic environment and foster collaborative working relationships’.

If it said something like this

‘PQ ACCA Accountant with experience in SME environment looking to take next step into management accounting role. Excellent Excel skills and proficient user of Sage 50 and Quickbooks’

Then great.[/quote]
Yes, it’s not that I disagree that it is often badly executed.

I just that I think that the second half of what I describe, which is essentially packing it with buzzwords, is what causes the word porridge.

I feel sorry for youngsters who have been taught to load their CVs with adjectives and dynamism, as well as naming skills and software, and have no clue how to pull that off. Not everybody needs to sound like the next big tech CEO, or whatever.

its all office speak a la 'blue sky thinking'

unfortunately, last time i took a course that included a bit about CV writing, that kind of bollocks is what they were recommended people write.

I'd LOVE to be able to apply for a job simply by being honest in the style of "been a parent/carer to my disabled child for years. I've not much current experience in this kind of role, but i'm a quick study and eager to learn." sort of thing.

@Merryoldgoat just to be a pedant... when you said language devils over time etc did you mean how language evolves over time as its not a phrase I've heard before?

@MichelleScarn

Not a pedant - what I wrote clearly makes no sense! I think it must’ve autocorrected ‘develops’ (or whatever I typed trying to type ‘develops’ with my sausage fingers).

@Batsy

its all office speak a la 'blue sky thinking'

unfortunately, last time i took a course that included a bit about CV writing, that kind of bollocks is what they were recommended people write.

I'd LOVE to be able to apply for a job simply by being honest in the style of "been a parent/carer to my disabled child for years. I've not much current experience in this kind of role, but i'm a quick study and eager to learn." sort of thing.

Wouldn’t that be a lovely world? Have you seen the film The Invention of Lying?

I think many people don’t understand that being clear and concise is preferable to using large words. A recent interviewer told me that they had received 800 applications and binned 90% straight away, for the same reasons. I’m no cv expert, but I try to make sure I’m clearly stating relevant skills and how I meet the criteria - with examples. A few family members have recently been updating their CVs and they always seem to start with a load of non-specific descriptive stuff and nothing to back it up. Anybody can say a load of great things about themselves, but it’s meaningless waffle. I feel awkward pointing it out to them because they think they are selling themselves and that’s just how you write a cv.

I've noticed a lot of job adverts contain this sort of bollocks too, waffling on, so people are probably responding in the same way. It's a self perpetuating cycle of bollocks. Sadly.

I think it would be okay in certain jobs. If being able to express yourself clearly in writing is important and an applicant isn’t able to do that then they aren’t suitable for the job. I think a lot of people try to sound very formal on applications, which is the right idea but sometimes can end up sounding awkward/being incorrect.

So glad I opened this thread, I've got to do a CV for the first time in several years and all the online guides are full of that sort of bollocks, that I never wanted to see when I was recruiting, but then you wonder if they're right and you're wrong!

"15 years working in X, I've seen a lot and learned from it and I turn up (nearly) every day with a smile on my face. Ignore my shit A levels and average degree, I'm great at building relationships and can make lovely spreadsheets"

I'm in NHS finance and I'd expect a qualified accountant to be able to write a clear, evidence based narrative explaining how they were suited for the role. I'm very forgiving about SPAG though to ensure inclusiveness.

I've done a lot of recruitment recently and generally spend less than 60 seconds on a first scan of an application. I can usually tell if someone is worth interviewing in that timescale. I also have a "maybe" pile. I re-read the "maybe" pile, but I've never recruited someone who fell into that pile.

Generally people are weaker at interview than on paper: if you don't like them on paper you probably won't recruit them.

@BeBloodyBold

Thank you - sound advice.

Can I ask, do you find that there are a significant number of qualified accountants and technicians who are unable to do their double entry?

It sort of blows my mind and I’m starting to wonder the value of some quals…

I know that accounting packages do a lot of the grunt work and maybe that’s why there are gaps?

In a weird way I think this is a class issue. Confident middle class people usually just 'know' (through social osmosis) not to use phrases that sound like something off the Apprentice because they consider it gauche. Working class kids who might have been the first in their family to go to uni, and/or who didn't grow up around people who read widely, don't have the same social cues and think this sort of go-getting language conveys enthusiasm and ambition. It's not really a right or wrong thing, it's a class signifier. If they can do the work you need them to do, and you like them at interview, I'd try to overlook - otherwise you might end up unintentionally reinforcing class privilege and recruiting in your own image, rather than going for the best candidates

Totally depends on the job. If it’s a professional job or anything to do with communications, YANBU. If it’s flipping burgers or cleaning then suck it up.

You should read the blurbs that people who 'curate' art collections write. It's a whole different dialect. Incomprehensible to normal people. Intentionally, presumably.

I think it's fine to be picky for an accounting role where attention to detail matters. Different if you're hiring for trolleys at the supermarket where hard work and resilience (you should see how people treat those guys,) are more important than the odd missing full stop.

If someone can't be bothered for an application, then MAYBE they won't be bothered in day to day work.

As for the wanky language and turn of phrase, I think you have to try and look past it as a quirk. I've looked at friend's CV's and thought they sound like right knobs, when in reality they're not.

I think PacificState is bang on about it being a class signifier unfortunately, as it’s also really hard to read and jarring and puts me massively off too. Could you add something to the advert (if not already there) that specifies clear, concise and simple language preferred as easily understood communication is a key part of the role? It might give a bit of a heads up to the working class youngsters (ime it is usually younger working class people who do this) and limit the worst excesses. And if you interview any who did write like that I would definitely give them feedback about writing style!

Conversely, a friend was recruiting at a veterinary hospital and a girl I knew applied for the position. She’s highly intelligent, achieved straight As at A level, is extremely practical, has a great deal of experience in the particular field for which they were recruiting. Oddly, her covering letter was full of ‘gangsta’ speak. My friend binned her application and I think this was a mistake, tbh, but kind of serves the applicant right. She could easily have asked for support with her letter. She doesn’t speak like that, so I’m at a loss as to why she wrote such a letter. Very bizarre.

@Yaykyay

This sounds really harsh but honestly as a dyslexic person who's had this shit all my life. Where thick as mince people act like they're really intelligent because they rarely make grammar mistakes. It's not a marker of intelligence. You just come across like a grade A twat and quite ableist.

It’s not that hard to get someone else to proofread your CV or use a software like Grammarly if you know that you make grammatical errors. Are you going to tell all of your stakeholders who expect an error free report that they have to excuse you?

@PacificState

In a weird way I think this is a class issue. Confident middle class people usually just 'know' (through social osmosis) not to use phrases that sound like something off the Apprentice because they consider it gauche. Working class kids who might have been the first in their family to go to uni, and/or who didn't grow up around people who read widely, don't have the same social cues and think this sort of go-getting language conveys enthusiasm and ambition. It's not really a right or wrong thing, it's a class signifier. If they can do the work you need them to do, and you like them at interview, I'd try to overlook - otherwise you might end up unintentionally reinforcing class privilege and recruiting in your own image, rather than going for the best candidates

I’m not sure this is true. Over the past 18 months I’ve mentored 3 young graduates looking for work in my field. I’d say 1 working class first in family to go to uni, 1 solidly middle class and 1 verging on upper middle class. All of them shocking for the “weird language” thing. I actually think it’s endemic in education now from primary upwards that “wow words” etc make the good writing.

But actually clear and concise gets the job done much better every time.

I tell them all to imagine they’re just writing it to me, not some mythic ‘important person’. They need to imagine me reading their CV and covering letter and then take out the shite bits they wouldn’t say in person to me.

Agree with pp it's standard advice to write about how passionate etc you are. People always ask "why do you want this job/why have you applied to X company" and you're not allowed to say "I need money" so have to come up with a load of fluff.

It sounds like you want the applicants to tick off a list of tasks or software they will be doing / using?

So.. you could have that as part of the application process. A tick list of things you want them to have experience in. Get them to tick it off in the online form and then when you interview you will base it around the things they ticked to determine if they're telling porkie pies or not.

@PacificState @BuddySpice

I suppose it may be a class signifier but whilst I probably tick a variety of middle class boxes, I grew up in a workless home on a council estate.

My previous assistant had a similar background to me and was the best accountant I’ve had technically as well as having excellent communication skills.

For the PP who asked: yes - written comms are required with a variety of internal and external stakeholders otherwise I’d not place much emphasis on it. I can’t review every email or letter they send and whilst I’d do it professionally and sensitively, no one wants to feel like a teacher is marking them at work.

@Cherrysoup how strange! I wonder why she did that? Do you think she’l just didn’t want the job and torpedoed it?

Have they been running it through grammarly to come up with new words?!

Anyway that's one thing, it's when they put their Tinder profile pic on that gets me!

@PacificState

In a weird way I think this is a class issue. Confident middle class people usually just 'know' (through social osmosis) not to use phrases that sound like something off the Apprentice because they consider it gauche. Working class kids who might have been the first in their family to go to uni, and/or who didn't grow up around people who read widely, don't have the same social cues and think this sort of go-getting language conveys enthusiasm and ambition. It's not really a right or wrong thing, it's a class signifier. If they can do the work you need them to do, and you like them at interview, I'd try to overlook - otherwise you might end up unintentionally reinforcing class privilege and recruiting in your own image, rather than going for the best candidates

Yes, exactly. It’s also why you hear certain customer service people criminally misusing “yourself” or “behalf” incessantly. A real class signifier and it’s such a shame because these things indicate striving, but sadly missing the mark.