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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Manager/ess

67 replies

whatnow41 · 18/06/2021 10:50

To be instantly put off a job advert when the job title is advertised as Manager/ess?

What century is it? And what else does the company have 'old fashioned values' about? Hmm

OP posts:
lilyofthewasteland · 20/06/2021 10:49

Don’t be ridiculous. Do you think that women who work in corporate environments call themselves product manageresses, or marketing manageresses, or IT manageresses?

I have never seen the job title "manager" and assumed an organisation is recruiting men only. How bizarre.

Laughing at the notion that the female managers at my workplace should all be changing their email signatures to "manageress" . Hilarious.

Newkitchen123 · 20/06/2021 10:54

Really wouldn't bother me in the slightest

PlanDeRaccordement · 20/06/2021 11:18

@lilyofthewasteland

You may not be affected by male biased language in job adverts but multiple studies of millions of job adverts in U.K. show both that stereotypically male jobs, like manager, CEO, director etc have male biased language in them that not only puts some women off applying, but reduced the chances of a female candidate being hired for the job, it is linked to the gender gap in many industries. They specifically mention the word “manage” as male biased.

Suggest you read:
Gaucher, D., Friesen, J., & Kay, A. C. (2011). Evidence that gendered wording in job advertisements exists and sustains gender inequality. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 101(1), 109–128. doi.org/10.1037/a0022530
Abstract

Social dominance theory (Sidanius & Pratto, 1999) contends that institutional-level mechanisms exist that reinforce and perpetuate existing group-based inequalities, but very few such mechanisms have been empirically demonstrated. We propose that gendered wording (i.e., masculine- and feminine-themed words, such as those associated with gender stereotypes) may be a heretofore unacknowledged, institutional-level mechanism of inequality maintenance. Employing both archival and experimental analyses, the present research demonstrates that gendered wording commonly employed in job recruitment materials can maintain gender inequality in traditionally male-dominated occupations. Studies 1 and 2 demonstrated the existence of subtle but systematic wording differences within a randomly sampled set of job advertisements. Results indicated that job advertisements for male-dominated areas employed greater masculine wording (i.e., words associated with male stereotypes, such as leader, competitive, dominant) than advertisements within female-dominated areas. No difference in the presence of feminine wording (i.e., words associated with female stereotypes, such as support, understand, interpersonal) emerged across male- and female-dominated areas. Next, the consequences of highly masculine wording were tested across 3 experimental studies. When job advertisements were constructed to include more masculine than feminine wording, participants perceived more men within these occupations (Study 3), and importantly, women found these jobs less appealing (Studies 4 and 5). Results confirmed that perceptions of belongingness (but not perceived skills) mediated the effect of gendered wording on job appeal (Study 5). The function of gendered wording in maintaining traditional gender divisions, implications for gender parity, and theoretical models of inequality are discussed. (PsycInfo Database Record (c) 2020 APA, all rights reserved)

Catlover77 · 20/06/2021 11:20

It’s not saying women are honorary men (as stated in a PP). Women don’t need roles to be given an ess to imply a female holds that position, all roles are now thankfully open to both sexes. Some of the comments on here boggle my mind

lidoshuffle · 20/06/2021 11:22

Female versions seem to imply a lower status. "Manager" could be in a multi-national company, but "manageress" a corner shop. "Waiter" - could be a highly trained person at a world renowned restaurant; "waitress" = greasy spoon. "Actor" is Judy Dench or at the RSC; actress = Benny Hill.

IamtheDevilsAvocado · 20/06/2021 13:02

@HeartvsBrain

Sorry, I don't really see the problem either. Do you think that they should just advertise for a manager then, and not make it obvious to us more old fashioned woman, that they are actually looking for either a man or a woman? They probably legally have to word it like that, as most jobs have to be open to both men and women, and using the manager/ess formula surely does that very simply? Or is it that you think it should have said " male or female manager required", or "female manager or male manager required"?

I presume that the name "wo man" is also insulting, and that referring to the Homosapien species as "Man" is also not acceptable? I am not trying to be sarky or anything like that, I just truly don't understand the problem (just like I don't understand that actresses nowadays want to be called actors as well, I just don't get it)? (and) As a woman who is proud to be a woman, I don't see how adding "ress" to masculine terms, is degrading to us - as wo men we are actually adding to a male term, because we women do add to the Homosapien species, we are a positive! In all seriousness I can't get het-up about such terminology, but if I really should be, can someone please explain to me, why?

I can't believe we're having this discussion in 2021 Grin.

All the - ess titles are bloody zillions of years out of date... It means that the default is male, manager..

Men everywhere in every job... But if a little woman gets it... You're a 'manageress' Grin.. Am I fuckAngry. I've been a manager and a bloody good one... I'm not a bloke minus... Sans a dick... So everyone needs to know...

It really riles me... (can you tellGrin)

HotChocolateLover · 20/06/2021 16:54

@HeartvsBrain

Sorry, I don't really see the problem either. Do you think that they should just advertise for a manager then, and not make it obvious to us more old fashioned woman, that they are actually looking for either a man or a woman? They probably legally have to word it like that, as most jobs have to be open to both men and women, and using the manager/ess formula surely does that very simply? Or is it that you think it should have said " male or female manager required", or "female manager or male manager required"?

I presume that the name "wo man" is also insulting, and that referring to the Homosapien species as "Man" is also not acceptable? I am not trying to be sarky or anything like that, I just truly don't understand the problem (just like I don't understand that actresses nowadays want to be called actors as well, I just don't get it)? (and) As a woman who is proud to be a woman, I don't see how adding "ress" to masculine terms, is degrading to us - as wo men we are actually adding to a male term, because we women do add to the Homosapien species, we are a positive! In all seriousness I can't get het-up about such terminology, but if I really should be, can someone please explain to me, why?

What she said 😂
Octopuscake · 20/06/2021 19:21

@PlanDeRaccordement I was being silly Smile

Your academic content is bang on, though. What do those studies, or others, see as the solution? If Director/Manager/CEO etc are coded as male, subconsciously, as they evidently are - I guess what we need is to make it explicit we consider both for the role in other ways in the text? As I just couldn't stomach trying to use or add feminine versions of words like manager. It seems to reinforce the outdated patronising feel of the whole thing.

I did some recruitment recently where we deliberately added in female pronouns. "The ideal candidate will have developed her skills in a fast paced environment..." etc to try and get round the default male thing.

AlexaShutUp · 20/06/2021 19:27

[quote Octopuscake]@PlanDeRaccordement I was being silly Smile

Your academic content is bang on, though. What do those studies, or others, see as the solution? If Director/Manager/CEO etc are coded as male, subconsciously, as they evidently are - I guess what we need is to make it explicit we consider both for the role in other ways in the text? As I just couldn't stomach trying to use or add feminine versions of words like manager. It seems to reinforce the outdated patronising feel of the whole thing.

I did some recruitment recently where we deliberately added in female pronouns. "The ideal candidate will have developed her skills in a fast paced environment..." etc to try and get round the default male thing.[/quote]
I agree. Adding feminine suffixes to the words doesn't fix the problem. If anything, it just reinforces it by underlining that the default word is associated with men.

I don't know what the answer is, other than positive action to get more women into leadership roles until those old associations begin to fade away. It is a vicious circle to a certain extent, as women are still self selecting out of those roles, but there are ways of investing in leadership development opportunities that might encourage women to see themselves in those positions.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 21/06/2021 00:37

I think for it to be in the job advert, as the title of the role, shows that either the organisation itself, or the hiring manager, has no respect for women and is not considered truly equal. You would always be starting from a place of being judged as lesser. Very telling, when you need to make judgements about whether you want to apply for a job or work for a company. All you can go off is the job advert and their website. Big red flag for me.

Separate from the issue of whether or not the feminine terms should be maintained or absorbed into the existing male/neutral ones, I think that's a massive stretch.

The very fact that they have advertised in a way that (they obviously believe) covers both sexes, surely they have done the exact opposite. It makes as much sense as saying 'he/she' when the sex of the successful candidate cannot yet be known is judging women as less equal and disrespecting them; or, as is sometimes seen, 'she/he' is saying the same about males.

It may well be that the person who wrote the advert is older/old-school/old-fashioned and, to them, manager suggests a male, whereas a female in the same role would be a manageress. Yes, there are logical reasons for possibly bringing the matter up with them and challenging their perspectives and use of language, but this might be their way, from their own upbringing and 'their own time', of deliberately stressing that they aren't only looking for or prioritising a male appointee to the job. They might have gone out of their way to make it crystal clear that they're looking for the best person for the job, regardless of whether they are male or female, and then people have seized on this and used their attempt at inclusivity and non-male-norm assumptions to accuse them of the very thing they were at pains to avoid.

Incidentally, I can't ever recall seeing an advert saying 'waiter' wanted (unless it's one of these seedy 'waiter-in-the-buff' type things for tacky hen nights) - only ever waiter/waitress, waitress/waiter or waiting staff. I agree with the PP that it's important not to inadvertently limit women's choices and freedom of expression in life, by eliminating all specifically feminine references and defaulting to male terms for all. Caroline Criado Perez' excellent book was a timely klaxon call to remember that 'male' does not equal 'person', but then, linguistically, I think there's almost a danger of undermining that message when we demand that anything specifically referring to women be banned/frowned on/deemed belittling, even when there's no suggestion of that intent by the user at all.

BearOfEasttown · 21/06/2021 00:42

@HeartvsBrain

Sorry, I don't really see the problem either. Do you think that they should just advertise for a manager then, and not make it obvious to us more old fashioned woman, that they are actually looking for either a man or a woman? They probably legally have to word it like that, as most jobs have to be open to both men and women, and using the manager/ess formula surely does that very simply? Or is it that you think it should have said " male or female manager required", or "female manager or male manager required"?

I presume that the name "wo man" is also insulting, and that referring to the Homosapien species as "Man" is also not acceptable? I am not trying to be sarky or anything like that, I just truly don't understand the problem (just like I don't understand that actresses nowadays want to be called actors as well, I just don't get it)? (and) As a woman who is proud to be a woman, I don't see how adding "ress" to masculine terms, is degrading to us - as wo men we are actually adding to a male term, because we women do add to the Homosapien species, we are a positive! In all seriousness I can't get het-up about such terminology, but if I really should be, can someone please explain to me, why?

This. ^ Some people just look for things to be offended by these days FFS what a histrionic reaction to naff-all.

And don't even get me STARTED on actresses being called actors now. Fucking piss take. The world has gone woke crazy. And hilariously the awards ceremonies still have a best actress award!!!

It's like the girls school this week who dropped the HEAD GIRL name and changed it to HEAD PERSON. Even though 100% of the students are GIRLS and it's still called a GIRLS school.

This is all becoming so ludicrous, that it's just laughable now.

BearOfEasttown · 21/06/2021 00:43

@lidoshuffle

Female versions seem to imply a lower status. "Manager" could be in a multi-national company, but "manageress" a corner shop. "Waiter" - could be a highly trained person at a world renowned restaurant; "waitress" = greasy spoon. "Actor" is Judy Dench or at the RSC; actress = Benny Hill.
What a load of absolute nonsense.
DdraigGoch · 21/06/2021 01:00

I'd never in my life seen the word "manageress". Waitress and actress are still in common usage (even if job adverts are 'neutral' - default male) but manageress must be ancient history.

jabbyjabjab · 21/06/2021 01:22

Never seen the word before - I would have assumed it had been used in a joke setting, if the OP hadn't said it was in an advert.

I've never seen the word manager as anything other than a gender-neutral term. I know that's curious, given it begins with the English word man, but I don't think that's where the etymology of the word comes from.

I mean, maneggiare‎ is to manage in Italian, and their word for man is nothing like ours - it's uomo - so I would have always guessed manager/maneggiare came from a Latin origin of something like manus.

Honestly, I'd be a bit baffled at the suggestion I might prefer the title manageress. (Unless it was used in friendly informal conversation, like "right, chaps and chapesses, shall we have one more for the road?")

Re some other -esses, I think women use actress and actor interchangeable these days, with actress falling out of fashion. It's pretty normal to refer to actors, even if they're all female rather than being mixed gender. Same with waiter and waitress - waiter is becoming more common, irrespective of gender.

EmmaGrundyForPM · 21/06/2021 01:46

I would be very suspicious of any firm which used this terminology. I've been working since 1989, have had many female managers (and am now one myself) and have never known anyone to use the word "manageress.

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 21/06/2021 12:47

manageress must be ancient history

Not at all, it's less common nowadays, but plenty of women of a certain generation - especially those from less metropolitan areas - would still use it to describe somebody else's or their own role.

On the one hand, a lot of younger women might see 'manager/manageress' in an advert and be offended, as they consider 'manager' to be neutral to apply to both sexes and 'manageress' therefore unnecessary/patronising - and thus decide that this isn't an employer they want to work for; whereas, on the other hand, some older women seeing just 'manager' in an advert might automatically (or subconsciously) assume that the employer is wanting/expecting a man and thus be put off applying too.

lidoshuffle · 21/06/2021 13:13

some older women seeing just 'manager' in an advert might automatically (or subconsciously) assume that the employer is wanting/expecting a man and thus be put off applying too.

Well I'm mid 60s so "an older woman". No way would I or any woman I know of similar age, ever in our entire working lives of over 40 years, have been put off applying for a manager's job because we thought it was men only.

We're not some delicate Victorian misses; we've fought sexism at work from the 70s onwards and now we are fighting ageism.

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