flying the Confederate flag?

[HedgeVeg]

We've just seen that a neighbour of ours has decided it's a great idea to fly a Confederate flag proudly in their back garden.

AIBU to think that it's spectacularly bizarre and complete dickish behaviour to fly any flag outside of sporting events fly a the Confederate flag?

(We're within the UK)

@FierceBarrie

I'm in NZ- never seen it flown once, ever. I wonder if it's because NZ is a bit closer to the US culturally so it was more controversial.

There was QUITE the furore last year when Home Learning TV was broadcasting on TVNZ during lockdown. One of the presenters had a small cushion on his sofa (you’d have to be really looking to notice it) which was basically a confederate flag.

People did notice it, and the complaints poured in. It was actually a Wonder Woman cushion with the flag on the other side. The cushion was swiftly removed, and an effusive apology issued!

Everyone with half a clue knows exactly what the confederate flag symbolises. And all this nonsense about how Democrats used to be Republicans and vice versa is hardly some explanation. Yes, that was the case during the Civil War. But the parties have long since evolved. Anyone flying the confederate flag will categorically not be a modern-day Democrat / Biden supporter.

Jeepers. I'd completely missed that. What a faux pas.

Perhaps not as maladroit as a MAGA mug though.

The confederate flag is only partly negative

Nope - it's totally negative, as any pro slavery symbol would be.

The Scottish flag can be called either The Saltire, or the St Andrew's Cross. Yes, other countries have a Saltire - we have The Saltire 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿
🥂🥂

@mustlovegin

Not another woke flag thread

No, this isn't wokery. Far from it.

@StoneofDestiny

The Scottish flag can be called either The Saltire, or the St Andrew's Cross. Yes, other countries have a Saltire - we have The Saltire 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 🥂🥂

clinks Scotch pie and pint in reply

@TomPinch
You're right about the roots of the flag going back to the 17th century. It evolved until the adoption of the current form in 1801. I'm right about the jack being flown on the jackstaff on ships.

The ‘confederate’ was never the true flag of the confederacy, it was one of many battle flags and only for a short time (too similar to the United States Stars and Stripes and a cause of confusion on a Smokey battlefield)

In the early 20th century there was a rewriting of southern history with the ‘lost cause’ movement romanticising the south in the civil war years.
These would increase activity at any time that the coloureds would get too uppity for equality etc
It could be a symbol of racism and a symbol of romanticising the ‘poor rebel south’ against the ‘oppressive north/federal government, and along with culture and music just seen as an innocent flag of the south
The Dukes of Hazard ended in the mid 80s so is over 35 years ago. It’s going to take a very hardcore dukes of hazard fan to use it today - and so hardcore a fan that they have seen nothing else since then.
(Though there is a newer film - still 15 years ago)
There could be a romanticised view with a taste of country music - if someone is extremely naive

With white supremacy mass shootings and use of the flag the issues came to a head with anyone reasonable in the US discarding it.
(As mentioned by another poster above when the ‘slavery’ states withdraw their associations, a symbol is promoted by extremists, and is carried into the seat of government as part of an insurrection > 160 years after the failed revolution that it had been a tiny part of then it’s pretty obvious what the symbol is about today)

A relative of mine was a part of a civil war enactament group, a fan of American history and all things Americana, he is very elderly now and hasn’t been involved for quite a number of years but he used to fly the confederate flag, this was about 10 years ago. I was never shocked and just seen it for what it was, I would never describe him as racist or stupid or dumb, or any of things that have been mentioned here. He does now fly the uk Union flag.

[quote ChinookPilotsGoVertical]@TomPinch
You're right about the roots of the flag going back to the 17th century. It evolved until the adoption of the current form in 1801. I'm right about the jack being flown on the jackstaff on ships.[/quote]
Yes you are, but you're incorrect in going on to say that it's incorrect to call the flag "the Union Jack". It's a name, like "the Stars and Stripes" or "the Saltire", not a description.

Stoneofdestiny above has illustrated the distinction.

The Wikipedia article on the Union Jack goes into this at some length and cites plenty of sources.

I think it's maritime influence, also seen in the US flag (originally based on a British ensign).

@TomPinch,
Technically I'm not incorrect but I will concede that modern usage has made the terms practically interchangeable. How did we drift so far from a bunch of ersatz rooinekke flying the Confederate battle flag in a British garden?

[quote ChinookPilotsGoVertical]@TomPinch,
Technically I'm not incorrect but I will concede that modern usage has made the terms practically interchangeable. How did we drift so far from a bunch of ersatz rooinekke flying the Confederate battle flag in a British garden?[/quote]
Because it's fun? But UJ is not just modern usage. There's references to it in legislation from a century back.

Anyway, rooinekke would surely never, ever consider themselves rednecks!

It’s weird and I wouldn’t necessarily assume they’re racist but think it’s possible they’re just ignorant. Definitely weirdos though.

I saw at a protest outside the Scottish Parliament against lockdown there were people with American flags - not the confederate one but the one with the snake and the “don’t thread on me”. Apparently it’s used for gun rights so confused why they’re using it here. Don’t know why so many take influence from USA politics.

When we bought our house, there was a confederate flag hung up in one of the cupboards.

I think the snake + don't tread on me is an American Revolution symbol, normally used these days by nutters people opposed to governments doing things they regard as interfering.

@jenkel

A relative of mine was a part of a civil war enactament group, a fan of American history and all things Americana, he is very elderly now and hasn’t been involved for quite a number of years but he used to fly the confederate flag, this was about 10 years ago. I was never shocked and just seen it for what it was, I would never describe him as racist or stupid or dumb, or any of things that have been mentioned here. He does now fly the uk Union flag.

My late father had an American pen-friend that he started writing to in the 50s, as a teenager.

The pen-friend is South Carolina born and bred. He is very much a ‘Southern gentleman’ - hospitable, gregarious, charming. And a proud descendant of confederate soldiers. Also a Republican and a Trump supporter.

He doesn’t fly the flag at his house. But he defends it vociferously. For him, the war wasn’t about slavery, but about states’ rights (states’ rights to own slaves seemingly bypassing him completely).

He goes on an annual hike - 10 miles across SC re-tracing the steps that his ‘great-granddaddy’ took when he walked home after General Lee’s defeat.

I find it really hard to square the man with the beliefs, thoughts and values. My Dad had to stop discussing politics with him, after the arrival of the internet, and their communications switched from letters to emails.

He tried to keep in touch with me after Dad died, but I have withdrawn. As nice as he ostensibly is, I find his views on too many things too far from my thinking.

I suspect there are many such people in the South. It’s easy to dismiss them as an inconsequential minority. Ignorant and in the dark. But 70-odd million people voted for Trump, many of them wielding confederate flags on their front lawns with Trump 2020 signs, and on 6 Jan, so … 🤷🏻‍♀️

Ugh, gross. The Confederate flag is a dog whistle for racists and white supremacists. Particularly suspicious when it's a British person flying it, isn't it? What connection could they possibly have?

Oh well OP, at least these idiots have tagged themselves for you. Saves you having to get to know them any better and finding out up close and personal.

Years ago I had a GF whose father was from the Deep South. She was a) English born b) a strong feminist c) very left wing and d) very clever and clued up. She was also white.

You'd expect her to be anti the flag, but she wasn't. The point she made was that the North committed atrocities on the South and regardless of the slavery issue, they shouldn't be forgotten. She was very forthright about it.

@ChainJane
It embodies rebellion against "the man" and the pursuit of freedom

This is BS racist revisionist history. It was never about “freedom” except for freedom of 5% of the population to violent enslave at least half the population. Slavery as the core reason is plainly stated even in the articles of secession of the confederacy.

@HedgeVeg your neighbour is a dirty racist and likely a right wing QAnon nut job.

In the United States, flying the Stars and Stripes is a sign of pride and patriotism, and has no racial connotations. Many people have large flagpoles for this.

The flag with the snakes is known as the Gadsden flag and is also quite respectable. It’s awkward for Britons, as it was a Revolutionary War sibilant. It’s not treason when you win.

@Ericaequites

In the United States, flying the Stars and Stripes is a sign of pride and patriotism, and has no racial connotations. Many people have large flagpoles for this.

As is the case in most countries.

We’re not talking about the Stars and Stripes, though.

Looks like they shouldn't have it flying anyway . There's a lot of restrictions around what flags can be flown. www.gov.uk/government/publications/flying-flags-a-plain-english-guide/flying-flags-a-plain-english-guide

@ChainJane

While it has negative connotations in the USA until recently most people outside of America associated it with the Dukes of Hazzard more than any "I like slavery" position.

The confederate flag is only partly negative. It embodies rebellion against "the man" and the pursuit of freedom, very much like the Scottish flag being waved as a big "fXXX you" to England.

That said, I wouldn't associate myself with anyone who waved a confederate flag in their garden, just as I wouldn't someone displaying a USSR flag or picture of Che Guevara.

It’s bloody offensive to compare the confederate flag to the Scottish flag!

OP, YANBU. If I were you I would fly the Progress Pride flag as nice ‘fuck you’ in retaliation, because I’m a salty bitch.

Can you please just go and ask them? After this post I’d love to know the answer! Even if they turn out to be fully aware of its connotation, you know for sure they are absolute idiots. If not aware you’ll soon see it removed