flying the Confederate flag?

[HedgeVeg]

We've just seen that a neighbour of ours has decided it's a great idea to fly a Confederate flag proudly in their back garden.

AIBU to think that it's spectacularly bizarre and complete dickish behaviour to fly any flag outside of sporting events fly a the Confederate flag?

(We're within the UK)

I only know a lot about this as Ds1 did US history as part of his GCSEs.

The Republican Party was formed because people wanted an abolitionist party and Lincoln was head of that party. Originally states joined the Union in pairs, one free state (above the 36/30 line) and one slave state. It all came unravelled when Kansas and Nebraska were set to join the Union and it was decided states could choose if they wanted to be slave or free states and it was put to a vote. Hence Bleeding Kansas (mass riots and deaths) which directly led to The Republican Party being created.

Lincoln was voted in as President and immediately South Carolina voted in a landslide to succeed from the Union claiming Lincoln and therefore the Republican Party did not represent their interests. Lincoln wanted to halt the expansion of slavery, but really he wanted it abolished and ultimately achieved it just before his death.

The "confederate flag" is actually a battle flag that came in half way through the civil war coinciding with Emancipation Proclamation, the first step to ending slavery.

All this information is readily available online, anyone flying that flag knows what it stands for. And yes, it killed Dukes of Hazard for me too loved the General Lee. My God what did we watch?

I'm a Yank. People who fly the confederate flag are typically followers of the Lost Cause revisionist view of history, where slavery was a good thing for all involved until the terrible Yankees came and messed it all up.

Lost Cause of the Confederacy

It's a disgrace for an American to think this way and bizarre for you to be encountering it in the UK.

Not another woke flag thread

Confederate flag items are actually banned on Amazon apparently

Well, a two seconds search and I found a few, so I don't know where you got that information

www.amazon.co.uk/Confederate-America-Notebook-Journal-Confederacy/dp/B096LMV37T/ref=sr_1_30?dchild=1&keywords=confederate+flag&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1623786144&sr=8-30

@mustlovegin

Not another woke flag thread

Imagine getting pissy about a thread about people discussing a Confederate flag.

'Whyyyy are people being mean about a white supremacist flag. Wah wah. I know I'll call 'em woke that'll be unique and refreshing'.

Dimwit.

@gottakeeponmovin

I have to admit I had no idea about the connotations when I had a bday party for my son 7 years ago and we had one! Thanks to mumsnet I do know now but I still think a lot of people think Dukes if Hazzard

I think there were various fried chicken restaurants (southern friend Chicky or maybe Dixie chicken) that used them, again until relatively recently (recently to me is now 5 or 10 years). So I think it is easy to see where the misunderstanding comes from.

However, even if it was the regular stars and stripes I would find it a little unusual for someone to have one on a large flag pole, even if they were American.

@mustlovegin

Confederate flag items are actually banned on Amazon apparently

Well, a two seconds search and I found a few, so I don't know where you got that information

]]

They are banned on the Amazon US website, along with other major retailers.

Walmart, Amazon, Sears, eBay to stop selling Confederate flag merchandise

All that comes up on the Amazon US site when you search for "confederate flag" are books with those words in the title.

NC for this as its outting!!

Maybd 5 years I played a sport and we did some games with a team name that was a pun connected to the Dukes of Hazard. We got really into the theme, including the confederate flag, so patches, nail stickers, shorts, socks etc. and were horrified when we realised how close we were to looking like a bunch of ignorant racists.

We just never thought, but when we looked into what the flag actually meant its clear its not just a flag from the top of a funny car!

@MrsTerryPratchett

(As a complete btw, it's also a saltire. I don't understand why Scots don't use the traditional name for their flag: the St Andrew's cross).

And why do the British say Union Jack when that's maritime?

I like it. It's a nice reference to the UK's maritime traditions. And - although I can't remember where I read this - it may have originally been used on ships after the Union if the Crowns in 1603. There were two versions - one with the St Andrew's cross superimposed on the St George's cross.

So that could be the reason.

Not that you were suggesting it - but it's entirely wrong to say that its correct name is "the Union Flag".

@ChainJane

While it has negative connotations in the USA until recently most people outside of America associated it with the Dukes of Hazzard more than any "I like slavery" position.

The confederate flag is only partly negative. It embodies rebellion against "the man" and the pursuit of freedom, very much like the Scottish flag being waved as a big "fXXX you" to England.

That said, I wouldn't associate myself with anyone who waved a confederate flag in their garden, just as I wouldn't someone displaying a USSR flag or picture of Che Guevara.

As a Scot that is so offensive. How dare you compare our national flag to one which symbolises racism, slavery and white supremacy! Also no one I know flies the flag as a fuck you to England! It is flown as a source of national pride.

@ddl1

YANBU. Why would British people have a Confederate flag? Either they're totally ignorant of what it means, or they're deliberately identifying with the worst parts of American history.

I agree with what others have said. I left the UK two decades ago. Whenever I saw the Confederate flag in the UK, the context was rock 'n roll, not racism. Racists would probably have used the Union Jack. There was no reason for them to adopt an American flag any more than, say, the South African tricolour used during apartheid. The Confederate flag was just seen as a visually attractive, countercultural flag associated with good music.

You'd have to be living under a rock to think that now, however.

I'm in NZ- never seen it flown once, ever. I wonder if it's because NZ is a bit closer to the US culturally so it was more controversial.

@mustlovegin

Not another woke flag thread

Not another comment seeing "woke" as a bad thing

YANBU. It’s not appropriate anywhere, let alone in another country!

It’s a pretty racist symbol and I’d be very put off them. They’re signifying they’re very right wing and proud of it. Not nice.

Whenever I saw the Confederate flag in the UK, the context was rock 'n roll, not racism.

I would generally agree with that. Primal Scream have a confederate flag on the cover of their 2011 album Give Out But Don't Give Up. I think they'd choose different cover art if making that album in 2021.

On the Dukes of Hazzard topic was the General Lee named after the confederate General? Assume it was but isn't a programme I have ever really watched.

@mustlovegin

Not another woke flag thread

How many other threads about Nazi/KKK flags are there on here?

@Yorkshirepuddingforever

On the Dukes of Hazzard topic was the General Lee named after the confederate General? Assume it was but isn't a programme I have ever really watched.

I'd always assumed so, and if you ignore the enormous elephant in the room (slavery) Lee was a gallant, skillful David sticking it to the man, ie, the overbearing Goliath of the North.

Of course the General Lee was named after the General Lee.

Agree with previous posters, the confederates were rebels And therefore the battle flag had rebel/rock n roll bad boy connotations.

But only for people ignorant of or insensitive to what it must certainly mean to black Americans.

White Americans have accepted its not about:
Southern pride
A rebel stand
Rock n Roll
A silly kid’s show

I think most of the Western world is on the same page too. The rest of the world, is mostly blissfully unaware I would assume.

@TomPinch
The Union Flag came after the Act of Union of 1707. The flag is often called the Union Jack in error. A Jack is a size of flag, like an Ensign.. The Jackstaff is a flagpole at the bow of a of a ship. The Union Jack is thus the size of national flag flown at the front of a ship. Otherwise it is the Union Flag.

Mississippi changed its state flag last year to remove the confederate emblem. When somewhere like Mississippi says 'yeah, that's not appropriate anymore' you know things have changed with regard to the flag being seen as an acceptable emblem of the South. Although I'm sure it can still be commonly seen in certain kinds of bars, homes, car bumpers etc.

@mustlovegin

Confederate flag items are actually banned on Amazon apparently

Well, a two seconds search and I found a few, so I don't know where you got that information

]]

Did you take 2 seconds to search Google as well @mustlovegin?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-33251120

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jun/23/amazon-retailers-banning-sale-confederate-flag

www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-shooting-south-carolinaebay-idUSKBN0P31ZJ20150623

edition.cnn.com/2015/06/22/politics/confederate-flag-walmart-south-carolina/index.html

www.businessinsider.com/amazon-removes-confederate-flags-from-website-2015-6

www.mercurynews.com/2015/06/23/amazon-ebay-and-other-retailers-ban-confederate-flag-merchandise-in-alliance-with-consumer-protests/

[https://www.huffpost.com/entry/amazon-confederate-flag_n_7647786]]

abcnews.go.com/Business/amazon-etsy-ban-confederate-flag-merchandise-joining-walmart/story?id=31972541

time.com/3932645/amazon-confederate-flags/

Thanks @TomPinch yes I guess on the surface he would seem like a revolutionary war hero if someone didn't have knowledge of the true reasons for the Confederacy.

I'm in NZ- never seen it flown once, ever. I wonder if it's because NZ is a bit closer to the US culturally so it was more controversial.

There was QUITE the furore last year when Home Learning TV was broadcasting on TVNZ during lockdown. One of the presenters had a small cushion on his sofa (you’d have to be really looking to notice it) which was basically a confederate flag.

People did notice it, and the complaints poured in. It was actually a Wonder Woman cushion with the flag on the other side. The cushion was swiftly removed, and an effusive apology issued!

Everyone with half a clue knows exactly what the confederate flag symbolises. And all this nonsense about how Democrats used to be Republicans and vice versa is hardly some explanation. Yes, that was the case during the Civil War. But the parties have long since evolved. Anyone flying the confederate flag will categorically not be a modern-day Democrat / Biden supporter.

[quote ChinookPilotsGoVertical]@TomPinch
The Union Flag came after the Act of Union of 1707. The flag is often called the Union Jack in error. A Jack is a size of flag, like an Ensign.. The Jackstaff is a flagpole at the bow of a of a ship. The Union Jack is thus the size of national flag flown at the front of a ship. Otherwise it is the Union Flag.[/quote]
ChinookPilotsGoVertical

You are confusing a common noun "jack" with a proper noun ("Union Jack").

And you're simply incorrect in saying that the flag only came into being after 1707. As I've already explained it was a century old by then. Furthermore, that's not the current Union Jack, which dates from 1801.