Boundaries

[CakeQueen2021]

I need some honest opinions...
My husband and I have two children (currently on Matt leave with our second).

My history with my parents is a bit challenging, there was some emotional abuse at home years ago and both my parents suffered with MH challenges due to some unforeseen family tragedies.

Years have past since then and our relationship has improved a lot (especially since I had children).

The only issue that seems to keep cropping up is when they are in our company, they tend to over analysis our conversations and pick apart innocent things we say.

The most recent being a comment my husband made when he was on the phone to a restaurant making a reservation for a meal for when his parents came to visit.
A day or so earlier I had mentioned that I was now on SMP only and things were a little tight financially but that's to be expected on Matt leave ect (in general conversation with my mum).

Today, my mum calls me and unloads a tonne of frustration about how my husband is selfish for wanting to book a meal out when 'we apparently don't have any money) -
I didn't say to her we didn't have any money, I said things were a bit tight.
The meal was £50 so not massively expensive.

They have helped us out in recent years financially (when our oven, washing machine and microwave all broke within 3 days), and most recently when our youngest child had a skin condition that the NHS was struggling to get under control (they kindly offered us the money to see a private consultant which we reluctantly accepted as we were desperate to help him).

Today's phone call got heated and they were really going into detail about decisions we had made (based on conversations they had either heard or been a part of whilst with us, mostly in our home).
They've torn my husband apart and called home sefish for watching the football today with his friend (I had no problem with this as he has been shielding due to Covid for most of the last year), they told me I should be unhappy in my marriage as it's not equal (it is equal, my husband is a hands on father to our children, he's one of the most easy going people I know, he'll get involved in cooking, cleaning and house admin ect, takes our daughter to her dance classes).

Anyway, they done this a couple of times before and my husband has just ignored it and carried on to avoid a massive family row.
Well today, he's furious and has had enough.
He's said that he should be able to speak freely in his own home without having everything he says picked over and anylised and then to has his character assassinated.
He feels like my parents are trying to drive a wedge between me and him.

I've told my parents how strongly he feels about what's happened and they've started using the money they gave us against us.
Claiming that whatever they give or do for us isn't enough, and that we're always painting them in a bad light.
My Dad has now decided that he won't come into my house anymore and my mum has told me that if I stop her from seeing our children, 'then there won't be any money or help'. I never once said anything about them not seeing the children, I would never use them as a weapon like that and I don't agree that the issue should ever have been raised at all as it was completely irrelevant to the argument.

I guess I'm just trying to understand if this is a normal family dynamic and something that a lot of people deal with, or is it a bit out of line for my parents to have such strong opinions about my marriage and finances?

Am I wrong for expecting there to be some boundaries here.

I'm with your DH. Never take any money or help from them again. A gift isn't a gift if there are strings attached

Me and DH are absolutely on the same page on this, we won't accept anything more in the future - it's just not worth the hassle.

The problem I have now is that DH doesn't seem that interested in trying to sort it out. He said he'll just keep out of the dynamic as he feels their behaviour is toxic.

I really didn't want my children to grow up within a feuding family, but I know it's his decision and I do understand why he feels this way (its about the 5th or 6th time they've done something similar to this in 6yrs), it started soon after we met. There was a lull for a while when the children were born but it's started again - I suspect they have been continuing with their nit-picking and conversations in private though.

They've also followed the same cycle
Of behaviour throughout all my previous friendships and relationships - they eventually begin the devalue the person and eventually it seems like they try to get me around to their way of thinking, if I don't comply,
It seems to escalate into these huge arguments.

My mum asked me today if I knew who I was anymore as she doesn't think I'm
My own person... whatever that was meant to
Mean 🤷🏼‍♀️

She's not a narcissist by any chance is she?

They clearly take one comment and run with it and it spirals out of control. They really shouldn't be talking to you like that, sounds very much like they enjoy you being reliant on them. Don't take any money or gifts from them anymore as it will ultimately be thrown back in your face

That sounds awful for both of you. It's good that you have such an awareness of their behaviour though, otherwise it could really cause conflict between you and your husband (I know it has already, but at least you are on the same page about it.)
You definitely need some distance from them. And if/when you reconnect, pull them up every single time they do this kind of thing -
'Why on earth would you think/say that?'
'How strange! We don't think that at all!'
'It's almost as if you want us to split up!? You ARE happy that we're happy, aren't you?

I have read a bit about narcissistic parents and how they behave towards their adult children, quite a lot of it is ringing very true indeed!

My father seems to enable her a lot - I think a lot of the over analysing is done by him and my mum seems to be the mouthpiece.

I was told today that I've never had any respect for them, that I'm ungrateful and they've learnt their lesson now and won't be helping us again.

I'm absolutely shocked that someone can
Openly attack another persons marriage and their spouse (unprovoked), yet they somehow have ended up the victim in all of this.
The mind truly boggles!

@Twillow

That sounds awful for both of you. It's good that you have such an awareness of their behaviour though, otherwise it could really cause conflict between you and your husband (I know it has already, but at least you are on the same page about it.) You definitely need some distance from them. And if/when you reconnect, pull them up every single time they do this kind of thing - 'Why on earth would you think/say that?' 'How strange! We don't think that at all!' 'It's almost as if you want us to split up!? You ARE happy that we're happy, aren't you?

I will definitely use those phrases should this happen again (it most probably will).

I said today that I was happy in my marriage.
My mums rely was ' of course you are, you're sitting in a 4 bed house with 2 nice cars on the drive'.

For the record, I'm happy in my marriage because DH is wonderful and he treats me with respect and kindness, not because of the house we live in.
Just found this remark so baffling and tinged with a weird bitterness that I couldn't put my finger on.

Again, not at all sure why that is relevant - I wondered if she was a bit jealous because she has been saying for sometime she'd like to move house.

He feels like my parents are trying to drive a wedge between me and him.

I think this is exactly what they're doing and they use money to keep the leash nice and tight around your neck. Their "help" definitely comes with some odd strings.

Obviously, never take money from them again, and in your case, please back your husband. What your parents are doing is absolutely outrageous.

I was told today that I've never had any respect for them, that I'm ungrateful and they've learnt their lesson now and won't be helping us again.

^ this is very true of how a narc mother will treat you. Everything they've ever done for you will be thrown in your face the minute you don't tow their line.

I went against my Narc mother and was cut out of the family. It was a horrible experience but I'm much stronger for it now and finally have full independence. I didn't even realise how dependent I was on her before she cut me out.

I think your DH is right and they are toxic. They are your parents and if you insist on having them in your life you need to manage them so that they don't have a negative impact on your family.

Your parents are being manipulative by bringing the children up as they have. Although to be frank my children wouldn't be spending a significant amount of time with people behaving as your parents are. Your DH is their father, I wouldn't trust them not to be shitty about him to the kids.

I have issues with my in laws. I am recently stepping completely out of it myself and leaving it to DH to sort out meeting up or presents for their birthdays etc. Not my parents = not my problem. They also won't be having much contact with my child, certainly not any unsupervised.

Please stopping taking money from them

If you can offer a £50 meal out then you should be able to pay for essential items at home. Have you offered to pay them back?

I have withdrawn a lot from my father because of petty attacks.

You could probably do with learning some assertiveness skills, I know that sounds patronising but I had to. I’d grown up being taught to never have any boundaries of my own, and it’s very hard for me to ‘control my space’ as it were.

That conversation - about your DH - you needed to nip it in the bud. You can do it directly, ‘sorry that’s not really anything I want to talk about, let’s change the topic’ or indirectly ‘look really sorry got to go - speak another time - bye’

Do this again, and again, and again. Refuse in your mind to get into the drama.

I got to the point where I refused to talk to politics with my father. I avoided his rare phone calls, because they were to go on about my step sister and ignore anything to do with me, and just accept the rare visit, be polite, and visit back. In short, I know who he is, I know he’s little interest in me, and so I’m now just perfunctory but crucially I do protect myself and my family. You need to protect your DH and your family.

@Aquamarine1029

He feels like my parents are trying to drive a wedge between me and him.

I think this is exactly what they're doing and they use money to keep the leash nice and tight around your neck. Their "help" definitely comes with some odd strings.

Obviously, never take money from them again, and in your case, please back your husband. What your parents are doing is absolutely outrageous.

Im absolutely backing him :)

If I'm honest, I think both my parents are Narcissistic.
I just thought their strange behaviour was normal years ago because I had nothing to compare it to.

Having seen how other families are, I'm starting to really see how my dynamic is waaaay off kilter 😕

I've tried to talk about the past with them before, but I get shut down and then the guilt tripping starts:
'Oh yeah we were awful parents weren't we! (Said in a sarcastic tone).
'Our best clearly wasn't good enough'
'Sorry you feel we were terrible parents'

There has never been any acknowledgement of the things that happened, sometimes I wonder if I made it all up in my mind (I know I didn't), but it's hard to explain the feeling when they tell me something happened in a different way to what I remember, I doubt my own recollection.

@Guavafish

Please stopping taking money from them

If you can offer a £50 meal out then you should be able to pay for essential items at home. Have you offered to pay them back?

We won't be accepting anymore.

We had a large bill for new appliances that all broke really close together and we were both furloughed at the time so they offered to help.

Most recently, they offered to pay £500 for us to see a consultant to help our son.
Being on maternity pay, this was a help to us.
Had I been working and receiving my usual salary, we wouldn't of accepted it.

We cover all our own mortgage, bills and childcare costs, including food and other bits.

@Guavafish

Please stopping taking money from them

If you can offer a £50 meal out then you should be able to pay for essential items at home. Have you offered to pay them back?

Yes, we offered to pay it all back when the offers were made and have offered again since.

They have refused on all occasions.

Good for you for backing your DH. One of the reasons I am still not able to co-parent effectively with my Ex is because he still doesn’t recognise his toxic family. And I have to protect our child from it to be frank, because he won’t.

Personally I’m not sure if the label narcissist helps or not, unless it’s very clear. If I were you OP I’d not analyse, but rather be very pragmatic. What works for you (and your family) and what doesn’t? And make sure your relationship is now on your terms. So are they on the whole great with the kids? If so, do a bit more of that and less adult time. Or… do they get on with you one to one - say just your mum and you better?

Whatever doesn’t work - sounds like conversations really and giving money - then just drastically reduce them or turn them into another format. Email, text with pictures instead. Stop answering calls. I did this with my father. He phoned. I’d text saying ‘sorry can’t take the call, will email tomorow’

@youOKhunn

I was told today that I've never had any respect for them, that I'm ungrateful and they've learnt their lesson now and won't be helping us again.

^ this is very true of how a narc mother will treat you. Everything they've ever done for you will be thrown in your face the minute you don't tow their line.

I went against my Narc mother and was cut out of the family. It was a horrible experience but I'm much stronger for it now and finally have full independence. I didn't even realise how dependent I was on her before she cut me out.

Thanks for sharing this :) it makes me feel less like I'm going a bit crazy as this seems to be an actual thing that some people do to other people.

In your experience, did you find there would be gaps of time where little or no conflict occurred and then it would come out of the blue?
With my parents, it's not constant but I can feel that things are being spoken about behind our backs.

You should defend your husband not by words by shutting your parents down every time they dis him. And don't tell him anything they've said about him, he doesn't need to hear it. Sounds like you let them give you shit about your marriage then you look to him for support, offloading onto the person they're giving you shit about and telling him all the details. It's not on. Have DP's back like he'd have yours and tell parents to jog on. Otherwise you're being disrespectful towards DP too.

Your parents are dicks. They're being off with money so don't take any off them ever again, even if they pressed it into your hand say No, put it in an envelope and post it back if they won't take it back in person. Don't give them anything to hold over you. No favours, no help. Say No and struggle if you have to, anything except help from them. And yeh I would stop contact with your children and your parents. They're toxic and the DC shouldn't be around that.

like I'm going a bit crazy

This is what abuse feels like. Gaslighting. It's not you that's crazy it's them!

@Rejoiningperson

I have withdrawn a lot from my father because of petty attacks.

You could probably do with learning some assertiveness skills, I know that sounds patronising but I had to. I’d grown up being taught to never have any boundaries of my own, and it’s very hard for me to ‘control my space’ as it were.

That conversation - about your DH - you needed to nip it in the bud. You can do it directly, ‘sorry that’s not really anything I want to talk about, let’s change the topic’ or indirectly ‘look really sorry got to go - speak another time - bye’

Do this again, and again, and again. Refuse in your mind to get into the drama.

I got to the point where I refused to talk to politics with my father. I avoided his rare phone calls, because they were to go on about my step sister and ignore anything to do with me, and just accept the rare visit, be polite, and visit back. In short, I know who he is, I know he’s little interest in me, and so I’m now just perfunctory but crucially I do protect myself and my family. You need to protect your DH and your family.

I need to do this! Today she caught me on the wrong day though and I got into it with her which I massively regret (mostly because my daughter was home with me and she could sense something was not right, my head space was taken up with this for most of the day and I didn't 'mum' as well as I should've done - that probably bothers me the most tbh).

Our 5 month old isn't sleeping and hasn't been well, I'm working my way through PND and today was probably the worst day she could've picked to start this with me.

There has never been any acknowledgement of the things that happened, sometimes I wonder if I made it all up in my mind (I know I didn't), but it's hard to explain the feeling when they tell me something happened in a different way to what I remember, I doubt my own recollection.

It's called gaslighting. The emotional abuse isn't in the past it's here in the present.

@AmberIsACertainty

You should defend your husband not by words by shutting your parents down every time they dis him. And don't tell him anything they've said about him, he doesn't need to hear it. Sounds like you let them give you shit about your marriage then you look to him for support, offloading onto the person they're giving you shit about and telling him all the details. It's not on. Have DP's back like he'd have yours and tell parents to jog on. Otherwise you're being disrespectful towards DP too.

Your parents are dicks. They're being off with money so don't take any off them ever again, even if they pressed it into your hand say No, put it in an envelope and post it back if they won't take it back in person. Don't give them anything to hold over you. No favours, no help. Say No and struggle if you have to, anything except help from them. And yeh I would stop contact with your children and your parents. They're toxic and the DC shouldn't be around that.

Really appreciate your honesty :)

I really did defend my DH with them today (I've also defended him in the past).
I will continue to defend him 100%.

He's aware of the things they say about him as on occasion, my mum has become so full of rage on the phone, he could hear every word she screamed.
He hasn't reacted before today, which I think is remarkable but today it just got too much.

Yes, perhaps I shouldn't of told him what was said, probably not the best thing to doin Hindsight 😕 I was just so angry that they were starting unnecessary trouble again.

They are very good with the children (it's a real juxtaposition!) - even so, I'm always watching how they interact with them.

The problems seem to arise anytime DH spends more than a couple of hours with them.
My mum is mostly ok when it's just me and her, although she has done this to me previously when it's just been is together but it's rare.

For the record, I'm happy in my marriage because DH is wonderful and he treats me with respect and kindness, not because of the house we live in.
Just found this remark so baffling and tinged with a weird bitterness that I couldn't put my finger on.

Bitter that you're happy maybe? Happy strong confident assertive. All things she won't like if she wants to control you. Needy and miserable is easier to manipulate.

@AmberIsACertainty

There has never been any acknowledgement of the things that happened, sometimes I wonder if I made it all up in my mind (I know I didn't), but it's hard to explain the feeling when they tell me something happened in a different way to what I remember, I doubt my own recollection.

It's called gaslighting. The emotional abuse isn't in the past it's here in the present.

This makes so much sense! My dad does this often.

He was quite rude to someone at my daughters birthday bbq very recently,when I raised it with him today, he said 'it was only banter'.

It definitely wasn't banter, it was rude and everyone was a bit shocked but he'll still tell me I'm over reacting.

He's aware of the things they say about him as on occasion, my mum has become so full of rage on the phone, he could hear every word she screamed.

your boundaries are off you should be hanging up if that starts. No explanation just hang up and don't answer when she calls back straight after to continue. She should contact you to apologize (yeh like that'll ever happen) and no chit chat until she does. Don't brush it under the carpet. Which she'll try to.

You're going to end up No Contact OP because your options are going to be verbal and emotional abuse or No Contact. Her doing, not yours (NC is your action but her behaviour is the cause).

@AmberIsACertainty

He's aware of the things they say about him as on occasion, my mum has become so full of rage on the phone, he could hear every word she screamed.

your boundaries are off you should be hanging up if that starts. No explanation just hang up and don't answer when she calls back straight after to continue. She should contact you to apologize (yeh like that'll ever happen) and no chit chat until she does. Don't brush it under the carpet. Which she'll try to.

You're going to end up No Contact OP because your options are going to be verbal and emotional abuse or No Contact. Her doing, not yours (NC is your action but her behaviour is the cause).

I don't think I've ever been very good with boundaries with them but it's time to start now, the damage it's starting to cause within my family unit worries me. DH is quite a resilient person but I'm conscious that this could cause serious issues for us.

When I lived at home, my mum used to open my bank statements and post and go through it with a highlighter and then question me on why I was spending my money on this and that (just normal young woman stuff like socialising, clothes, nothing illicit or dangerous).
With this in mind I think my boundaries have been off for years 🤦🏼‍♀️😂
It was humiliating at the time and we had a few awful arguments about it.
She continued to read my post even after I had moved out (she let herself in to my flat whilst I was away) and then started questioning me about something that she could only have read in a letter I had received. When I confronted her, she told me her friend who worked at the letting agent I rented through at the time had told her. I rang the lady and asked why she had divulged personal information to my mum about my rental agreement, she said she hadn't seen or spoken to my mum in months. Needless to say, I apologised to the poor woman and once again, me and my mum ended up arguing - she's never had a key to my home since that happened.

Will have a chat with DH tomorrow to agree boundaries regards to managing them.

From now on, I will just have to cut the conversation short when one of these things start, the whole process is emotionally exhausting!