To be irritated by the Londoner exodus to my town?

[thesecondnamegame]

I've been priced out of my Greater Manchester town by the London diaspora. Anybody who knows the area will know which town I mean. My tatty council town centre terrace is worth 300k. A load of Londoners came up after the BBC moved to Manchester. Half the kids in my kid's school's parents are from London and they love to make sure you know that. House prices have become ridiculous and are in a different world to the rest of Greater Manchester. It's ridiculous as it used to be a very unremarkable market town (albiet with not much to it) and now it's gone all 'naice' and I'm having to move 10 miles away because it's reaching the surrounding towns and I simply cannot afford to live here and I want to buy a property. It annoys me, I keep imagining somebody who had a London salary and bought a house in London, sold it, and came up here and bought a house 3 times bigger for the same price as their smaller London home. It just seems like they cheated. There are no school places either, because a lot of the Londoner's chose this particular town for the schools. The catchments are bloody tiny, I know somebody who lives in a village about 4 miles away. The schools in this town are the closest schools. No school would take her child and she ended up having to home educate for months.

All my relatives who bought properties or private rented have had to leave, even those who went to uni and got great jobs.

Fell your pain BUT

1. cliques can happen anywhere for any reason in my eldest DS class 6 of the boys (out of 12)) where part of any extremely cliquey closed off group of kids who were the children of a group of old school friends who where absolutely refused to allow their kids to be friends with any other boys than those in their clique. You also get cliques of young mums, sporty mums, mums who live on particular housing estates, etc etc.

2. if it is didsbury you live in to be fair it has always been a very pricey part of Gtr Manchester even 20 odd years ago

3. not all londoners are wealthy or have had better opportunities

4. i personally dont see the northern powehouse being a real thing other than a few public bodies moving north. most or many more private sector jobs will have hubs in SE

I think though that’s something around the idea that the majority of people in London come from somewhere else - whether that’s elsewhere in the UK or another country - to a degree that you only get in a handful of global cities.

I think that is an interesting point, but I also think that is because people outside of the areas have a distinct concept of what it means to come from Yorkshire that they wouldn’t have about Kent or Essex.

@RickiTarr

I love the way London brags about being the most ethnically diverse UK city, when it's actually Birmingham

Is it? I visit Birmingham regularly now but had never been there more than once until about 2012 and have never lived there. London is my home city.

So on that basis, my impression is that Birmingham might have the nose on London for “non-white” residents, but that an overwhelming majority of the non-white community in Birmingham is Asian, mainly Muslim, with a large British-carribean minority also very obvious to an outsider.

So that might give a higher percentage of the Birmingham population who are “BAME” than in London, (I really don’t know, London’s “BAME” - hate that term- % is also high) but I doubt it is such a diverse diversity as London’s IYSWIM? Not saying either is better than the other. I can just see why the dispute might crop up.

One thing, that did strike me, driving and wandering through Brum, is the way different areas seem strongly segregated on ethnic and class lines. Whole suburbs seem to “belong” to a particular demographic. It made me wonder if London or NYC used to feel like that before the lines blurred more.

This is true. Definitely areas with very seperate and distinct communities.

That is not what I expect diversity to represent.

Well in my block we have people from (originally)
Germany, Italy, Spain, Brazil, Poland, China, Iran, Wales, Egypt, Turkey, the Caribbean, Canada, Australia, America, Israel and some ME (not sure which) country. Also England and Scotland.

And that’s just the people I know. Now that’s diverse...

@toffeebutterpopcorn

Well in my block we have people from (originally) Germany, Italy, Spain, Brazil, Poland, China, Iran, Wales, Egypt, Turkey, the Caribbean, Canada, Australia, America, Israel and some ME (not sure which) country. Also England and Scotland.

And that’s just the people I know. Now that’s diverse...

Indeed.

I think that is an interesting point, but I also think that is because people outside of the areas have a distinct concept of what it means to come from Yorkshire that they wouldn’t have about Kent or Essex.

That’s probably true for the UK part of the population - local identities in the UK are incredibly strong! - but I’m not sure it holds for immigrants like me and the friends I’ve referenced.

This has been a really interesting thread. I do think OP was trying to have a pop at Londoners, but I sort of see her point in parts that it’s a bit questionable that somebody who bought in London decades ago and made £400,000 as a result can then come up and buy a house in a northern area that is worth 4 times less that it would be in London. We have to consider that the northern town will have had much less opportunities for its residents, worse schools and no grammars, much worse infrastructure preventing people from being able to go to local city's for jobs, and while the London salary is way too low for London, it's still on average higher than it would be in somewhere in Yorkshire and there are likely to be a much higher proportion of higher earners in London. A £400,000 house would be incredibly cheap from the perspective of somebody coming up from London who can afford it outright, to those living and working in the town, it honestly isn't cheap at all and these people who may worked just as hard have to face then moving to even worse off areas to buy with a huge mortgage while watching people go in to their town going on about how cheap it is. I can see why it would cause resentment. It's a knock-on effect of what happened to London. Though OP’s town hardly sounds like a down on its luck ex mining town itself so I’m not sure why she needed the self indulgent whinge.

The tax idea would also have to apply to people moving from the likes of OP’s town to somewhere much cheaper. I think it would potentially help calm down the price inflation in London and elsewhere so I don't see how it would disadvantage London FTB's at all. Would case a shit storm for business moves though.

I do have to laugh at Manchester being called a parochial city. This is the kind of stuff that makes people a bit about certain attitudes in London. Manchester is its own county and is big, with vast geographical and cultural differences between north and south Manchester. People also like to just use the City Of Manchester to say how small it is compared to London and forget the other 9 boroughs, by that logic then London only consists of the City of London. The place is filled with skyscrapers now and I think it’s putting Birmingham’s second city status to shame. It’s hardly Canterbury. It’s commonly known as the words first industrialised city. Parochial my arse.

I think London’s days as a ‘world city’ are fast coming to an end. Brexit (which many working class Londoner’s did vote for), Covid (meaning the concept of world cities in general is dying) and the rise of China are ensuring this. Isn’t Canary Wharf a ghost town these days? I find it to be a quite a soulless, tragic place in its current form. It’s all very much a front, without much going on within it. I hate having to travel there and find the place incredibly oppressive and dead, and love coming home to Birmingham. In general I have found London people chatty and friendly though. But forbid you say a bad word on MN about London and yet MN loves a good Birmingham bashing IME. I like it here, it’s diverse, our city centre is coming on in leaps and bounds, I have lovely places like Warwick and the Cotswolds a short drive away. I also love a day out to Manchester. I would rather stick pins in my eyes than move to London and don’t blame anyone scrambling to get out. Somebody may come along and say "Well I'd rather stick pins in my eyes than move to Brum." and there won't be an army of angry posters coming to defend it. I’m all for moving more focus up to Manchester and Brum.

And it’s worth noting that the foreign-born population of London is really different from other major cities - 37% in London v around 16% in Birmingham, for example, and 11% in Leeds.

Somebody may come along and say "Well I'd rather stick pins in my eyes than move to Brum." and there won't be an army of angry posters coming to defend it.

strength in numbers!

northern town will have had much less opportunities for its residents, worse schools and no grammars, much worse infrastructure preventing people from being able to go to local city's for jobs

Oh my lord, the OP is talking about Altrincham, one of the most affluent places you can conjure up! This really doesn’t apply in this context!

www.theguardian.com/money/shortcuts/2014/jun/30/altrincham-highest-house-prices-outside-south-east

@merrymouse

We really aren't so bad! Brum suffers greatly from the ridiculous North/South drama we have in this country. Both camps despise us. If somebody were to make a MN thread asking about a city to move to outside of the south-east where they could still commute to London you'd get tons of people mentioning the much further away Manchester before somebody even suggests Birmingham. At this point I just take it in my stride and find it quite amusing.

I do think OP was trying to have a pop at Londoners, but I sort of see her point in parts that it’s a bit questionable that somebody who bought in London decades ago and made £400,000 as a result can then come up and buy a house in a northern area that is worth 4 times less that it would be in London.

But how many of the people moving out now are those who managed to buy when London was affordable decades ago? As opposed to those who bought when London was already starting to be runaway affordable but you could just about scrape Zone 6 if you squinted hard. I’m in the latter group and I’m in my mid-40s…

For the record I think Manchester - all of it - is brilliant and I love to visit and it’s one of the UK places I could almost see myself living if not for the aforementioned worries (and the rain. I struggle enough with London weather.)

London has higher wages. London has more funding per head of population, better and cheaper public transport. Higher rates of housing benefit

Well that's lovely....shame so many Londoners don't benefit from all that. Clearly it's nowhere near enough. London pays more tax in then it gets back...perhaps one reason why it has the most severe homelessness crisis in the UK (because the money - London's money - is going elsewhere). You hate London? Don't take it's money and let London's (many) poor have it. They desperately need it.

London is the capital of homelessness. Higher housing benefit...and even higher rents - far above Hb amounts. So pretty useless for vulnerable low income families and disabled individuals...who can't get housing in the first place.

Not much more essential than a home. Two up, two down, you complain about? Swap with a Londoner in a homeless hostel. Two thirds of all UK homeless families are in London.

165,000 - the size of many towns - homeless in London.

It's sickening. Attitudes like Flax's. So eaten up with ignorant bigotry, she envies the homeless (they're Londoners, she shouts, and therefore 'privileged' to be without one of life's most basic essentials - a home). Who thinks the most severe homeless crisis in the whole country is something to be jealous of?

The problems - homelessness, etc are not confined to London, but my word is it bad there.

Unlike Flax, OP took on board other posters. She was initially influenced by the ignorant narrative perpetuated by people like Flax. But she listened and started to look at the real issues and possible solutions. Thank you @thesecondnamegame I have a huge respect for people who do what you did - and I agree with you that something needs to be done about the wider problem of unaffordable housing. Across the UK.

@JaJaDD

Read to the end of the paragraph you quoted.

Also yet more double standards?
Why are people everywhere else 'locals' yet Londoners are not? Anyone moving to London is considered a Londoner, yet everywhere else you have to be born and bred to be a local. No. It can't work one way only (same as the traffic).

London has more funding per head of population

Is that true? I would have thought that more remote parts of the U.K. have higher per capita expenditure, but London benefits from economies of scale.

What about Londoners who moved to London from somewhere else, are they allowed to leave?

People can move where they like. House prices go up when areas become more desirable and people move around a lot more than they used to, it's inevitable.

Somebody who bought a modest London house 20 years ago and has literally made hundreds of thousands should not be allowed to then come somewhere else with a complete different house price climate and buy a McMansion.

    So who DO you think should be allowed to buy a McMansion near Manchester?

Tealightsandd

Ad hominem attacks and personal insults are not much of an argument

they're Londoners, she shouts, and therefore 'privileged'

I never said this BTW

Another point for Birmingham is that it has Malala.

This is the flipside of not having companies be London centric

It’s simple economics really
Londoners are incentivised to move
somewhere that’s not ‘home’

They then drive up prices as they do have more disposable income

It’s an economic factor and not really the fault of Londoners

@merrymouse

London has more funding per head of population

Is that true? I would have thought that more remote parts of the U.K. have higher per capita expenditure, but London benefits from economies of scale.

On a current + capital basis it's true (or was pre-pandemic). On current alone it's second to the North East and is about £100/head more than the North West. The lowest is the South East (which is probably at least slightly offset by the London spending due to the large number of commuters - so it's another reason the London figures might be higher, because commuters increase demand on services.)

According to the ONS at least a proportion of that is because it's more expensive to provide services in London due to higher staff, rent and other infrastructure costs. On the capital side, TfL spend is included which makes a big difference (and I'm glad we have excellent public transport in London and agree it should be better elsewhere.)

Greater Manchester voted 60% remain, slightly higher than the overall figure for London

*Greater Manchester voted leave.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people don't understand that
Greater Manchester (population 2.8 million) is a county
Manchester (population 553,000) is a city

Of Greater Manchesters 10 boroughs, 7 voted leave*

Just to be clear, the borough that the OP is talking about voted to remain by quite a big majority to remain (57.7% to 42.3% and had a 75% turn out).

I'm in Greater Manchester. I work right next to BBC and spend lots of time in Media City. I'm yet to meet a Londoner who wants everyone to know they're a Londoner and I'm honestly baffled by it.

As for the rest, everybody is free to up sticks and move anywhere in the country they choose to. Often people in the south east who bemoan the cost of living are told to move elsewhere.

Londoners keep on losing out - and get attacked for their misfortune to boot! Kick 'em when they're down.

Jobs centred in London means people from elsewhere move to London, to take those jobs (and the housing).

What is the government's solution? Move jobs out of London (at a time when the unemployment rate is highest in London)...The jobs will still be performed by the same people - just now they don't move to London. Meanwhile Londoners aren't allowed to do the same as everyone else and move for jobs or housing. Oh no. No jobs or homes allowed for Londoners.

Freedom of movement is good. When it works both ways. I agree with PP that London's tolerant welcoming diversity is part of what makes it great. But it seems that the tolerant welcoming works only one way, with Londoner hospitality abused by 'locals' from elsewhere - who expect one way traffic only. Insularity rules outside of London it seems - with a large dollop of hypocritical double standards too