... to consider that it is ethical for the uk to vaccinate teenagers and that those saying we shouldn't are wrong?

[KihoBebiluPute]

So there are various news articles saying that there are now approvals for vaccines for 12-15 year olds, but that the JCVI is carefully considering whether to go ahead with actually implementing this for the wider population, with one of the questions being whether it is ethical given that (a) lots of other countries haven't managed to vaccinate their vulnerable populations yet and (b) the virus isn't a big risk for the young so is it fair to risk the vaccine to avoid such a no-big-deal illness.

My view is that on the international question, the same principle applies as they say on the plane-safety announcement: "secure your own oxygen mask before helping others" - if you don't follow this principle then all that happens is that there are 2 casualties rather than 1. If we don't vaccinate our teens that isn't going to directly resolve the practical and political issues in the worst-affected countries and enable them to vaccinate more - it would just mean that the uk takes longer to recover in the post-covid aftermath and that doesn't help anyone. Even if we don't actively help other countries once our country and workforce can be "back to normal", it is beneficial to have some countries that have no need of any relief efforts or monitoring so that whatever recovery programmes are put in place can focus on where such efforts are needed.

I don't believe it would be of any benefit to the unvaccinated people in worst-hit countries for the UK to keep limping along on the boundary between recovery and lockdown. The number of vaccines required for our teens are a drop in the ocean that wouldn't make much difference if distributed elsewhere and probably wouldn't actually go to those most in-need anyway even if we did decide not to use them.

Secondly, whilst individuals teens aren't at great risk of life-threatening illness, the effects of the pandemic on this age group is huge. Our second cohort of GCSE and Alevel pupils are having their qualifications disrupted, isolation at home when there are outbreaks in schools is having a devastating impact. Getting a high enough vaccination rate amongst teenagers is vital to enable secondary schools to start functioning normally again, including allowing all the extra-curricular activities that are still impossible or significantly reduced to go back to normal. The effects of the pandemic on this generation of teens is already awful and a vaccination programme is the only way to stop it from getting worse and start counteracting all the damage done in the last 16 months.

AIBU?

As it’s approved for 12-15 now I think we should offer it to those 12-17 that want it.
There are many parents that won’t allow their kids to have it, so we won’t need vaccines for the whole of that population.

YABU

We don’t know the effects of these vaccines in five years and covid barely affects this age group

I think parents who want to vaccinate non vulnerable DCs are batshit crazy to be honest and I hope to god the vaccines are ok longer term

I disagree. The exact same argument could be made for sending any aid overseas, except that in this instance, helping to ensure that the global population is best protected is the best long term strategy. I am utterly sick of all of it, I am a secondary teacher so have 'skin in the game'. I think we should vaccinate teens but if that is at a slightly slower rate so be it.

There's a big difference between saying they can have it if they want it (opt-in) and organising a proper program to have vaccinators come into each school and do the whole school (with opt-outs for those who object obviously). If we just allow the former we will still have education disruption with isolation and absence continuing on and on with no end in sight.

I think the ethical point is a good one.

I would want to see all CEV and CV DC offered the jab, plus all those living in households with a CEV person (as the jab may well not work for those with certain underlying conditions and bringing it home from school,could easily be the biggest risk)

Currently the plan is for over 18s, and 16-18 yos only where there is need (CEV, CV, household) and younger off-licence only for a pretty narrow subset of CEV.

I think it might be a good idea to extend to cover all those aged 16+

At present we vaccinate toddlers against flu, to protect their grandparents. I can’t see any difference between this and vaccinating youngsters against Covid.

No - this has been a global pandemic and we need to pull together globally to stop it. Teens and children are at extremely low risk, especially in a country where the adult population has been vaccinated at very high levels. Personally I would much rather see vaccinations be sent abroad to be used on those in high risk categories in desperate need, where transmission rates are very high.

I personally feel it's not an ethical decision to vaccinate teenagers when the risk of the vaccine is higher than the disease it is intended to prevent. Evidence from Israel shows that once the adult population is vaccinated the transmission reduces significantly among all ages, including unvaccinated children.
If we don't help to vaccinate all of the world's adult population then continued widespread transmission allows the continued risk of variants that can escape the current immunity (either naturally or vaccine acquired) or that could causeore mortality or morbidity. Rather than both being airplane passengers, we are both holding an unexploded bomb and need to work together to defuse it otherwise we are all going to be caught in the blast.

The Pfizer vaccine isn't great for use in the most vulnerable countries due to its storage requirements. So I'm minded to think that could be given to teens.

I'd like to see it being offered to all post-GCSE teens at least. The 16/17 year olds are out and about more, and many will attend large 6th form colleges.

If we don't help to vaccinate all of the world's adult population then continued widespread transmission allows the continued risk of variants that can escape the current immunity (either naturally or vaccine acquired) or that could causeore mortality or morbidity. Rather than both being airplane passengers, we are both holding an unexploded bomb and need to work together to defuse it otherwise we are all going to be caught in the blast

This is an important point

I would be perfectly happy for vaccines to be sent abroad if there was any guarantee they would be used. Lots have been destroyed because they have no way of distributing them, no one want to take them.

My view is that on the international question, the same principle applies as they say on the plane-safety announcement: "secure your own oxygen mask before helping others

The logic is not remotely transferable to the covid vaccine situation. We are already nearly six months into the vaccination programme. Do you seriously think that per countries' citizens should continue to for until every single lesson in the UK is vaccinated? How are they being helped by having to wait until everyone here has been jabbed?

The oxygen mask logic saves both lives, by don't of the first person saving the second. No-one is being saved by the entire population of the UK being vaccinated. None of those vaccinated people has an active role in saving the life of a person in Zambia or Uganda

Children have a vanishing small chance of being ill with CV, let alone dying and with 90% + of adults vaccinated by the end of summer, who would they pass their infection on to? including teachers.
Many students have already had CV in any case.

Where as allowing CV to run amok in the developing world will mean variants coming here that may be vaccine resistant, putting us all back into LD.

The argument the jabs wont go to the most needy, well that argument could be used to halt ALL overseas aid, not such a crazy idea for many in the UK!

However, PM Johnson is calling for ALL of the world to be vaccinated by the end of next year but that that cannot be done if rich nations look after themselves first.

that per countries' citizens should continue to for

Ugh. That other counties citizens should continue to die.

So protect the vulnerable has morphed into sod the consequences, let's vaccinate children and let the vulnerable elsewhere die.

I think children should be vaccinated too. Think of what happened with the UK variant, the one that became more effective at infecting young people. They are at low risk today, but the virus will continue to mutate and there is not guarranty that it will not start spreading amonst them and producing symptoms. If the adults have extra protection, the virus may evolve to attack children. We should all have the same protection in my opinion. Same as all the population in the world should be vaccinated. Add to that that children are the people with less social distancing at present. Most of the adults are not requested to share a room with 20 others or so.
Regarding vaccinating the world's population, the only way of doing so is by producing more vaccine, and producing it locally. By setting production using in collaboration with other pharmas that have the reactors and packaging and quality facilities. Otherwise, they will not be able to produce enough.

@bebanjo

I would be perfectly happy for vaccines to be sent abroad if there was any guarantee they would be used. Lots have been destroyed because they have no way of distributing them, no one want to take them.

The vaccines sent had just a few days left before the expiry date was reached. So they were destroyed publicly to show their populations they took the health of their citizens seriously.

The vast majority of vaccines sent to developing countries are used correctly.

The UK has donated far more to COVAX than the EU so proportionately, we are morally fine. Also it is disturbing to hear of the millions of vaccines being binned in other countries due to myriad of reasons (inc. transportation difficulties and vaccine refusal).

An 80 year old in Zimbabwe could die if they don't have the vaccine whereas a 12 year old on Wales won't. The oxygen mask metaphor is irrelevant as you're talking about one person in a plane crashing and one person in a plane flying smoothly. Incredibly selfish to withhold vaccines from countries that need it more.

We can’t as a country make sure we are safe if Covid is still raging in other countries, throwing out new vaccine-resistant mutations. As rich countries we should be doing way more to stop that, just from self-interest, let alone the ethics of it.
Supporting the proposal for a limited suspension of patent rights to allow wider manufacture would be a start (UK is opposing this), we should be providing serious funding, and yes, probably donating vaccines too that aren’t needed for adults. Your oxygen mask analogy doesn’t work, OP.

I would have thought that it would be better to vaccinate the other countries first so that we can start opening borders again for international travel, for holidays etc. Vaccinating our teens isn't going to speed that up. But vaccinating another country would.

You also state that the amount of vaccines needed for our teens wouldn't be a lot and would make no difference to another country but it might really. Other countries may not have so many elderly due to a lower life expectancy than us. Sadly not as many survive until they are elderly as there are in our country.

There is no way of getting enough vaccines to the whole world that to share the production recipe with local pharmas, with local manufacturers, and start making it in most of the reactors and facilities available worldwide.
By producing it only on the patent owner facility or just a few facilities, it will take years to get to everyone in the world. Surely it will not be done by the end of this year.

Seriously, holidays abroad are not more important than being able to attend school without self isolating every time a pupil tests positive!

It’s far more dangerous for everyone when the virus is still raging in other countries, far more chance of variants. We should be giving vaccines to other countries where adults are dying before vaccinating children here. It’s short sighted and extremely selfish.

I handy even thought of the issue of ethics in terms of vaccinating teenagers. Having thought about it though I do thinks it’s unethical for us to vaccinate very low risk people while other countries have a short fall off vaccines for their vulnerable.

I don’t think the plane/oxygen anaology works. Everyone on a plane going down has the same risk and you quickly can’t help anyone if you don’t have oxygen. This is more comparable to something a little out of breath from walking up a hill using oxygen instead of someone with a lung condition who desperately needs it.

I agree that teenagers have been impacted massively both socially and educationally. However once their vulnerable family and school staff are vaccinated that should lower the impact and reduce need for lockdown abs school closures anyway.