... to consider that it is ethical for the uk to vaccinate teenagers and that those saying we shouldn't are wrong?

[KihoBebiluPute]

So there are various news articles saying that there are now approvals for vaccines for 12-15 year olds, but that the JCVI is carefully considering whether to go ahead with actually implementing this for the wider population, with one of the questions being whether it is ethical given that (a) lots of other countries haven't managed to vaccinate their vulnerable populations yet and (b) the virus isn't a big risk for the young so is it fair to risk the vaccine to avoid such a no-big-deal illness.

My view is that on the international question, the same principle applies as they say on the plane-safety announcement: "secure your own oxygen mask before helping others" - if you don't follow this principle then all that happens is that there are 2 casualties rather than 1. If we don't vaccinate our teens that isn't going to directly resolve the practical and political issues in the worst-affected countries and enable them to vaccinate more - it would just mean that the uk takes longer to recover in the post-covid aftermath and that doesn't help anyone. Even if we don't actively help other countries once our country and workforce can be "back to normal", it is beneficial to have some countries that have no need of any relief efforts or monitoring so that whatever recovery programmes are put in place can focus on where such efforts are needed.

I don't believe it would be of any benefit to the unvaccinated people in worst-hit countries for the UK to keep limping along on the boundary between recovery and lockdown. The number of vaccines required for our teens are a drop in the ocean that wouldn't make much difference if distributed elsewhere and probably wouldn't actually go to those most in-need anyway even if we did decide not to use them.

Secondly, whilst individuals teens aren't at great risk of life-threatening illness, the effects of the pandemic on this age group is huge. Our second cohort of GCSE and Alevel pupils are having their qualifications disrupted, isolation at home when there are outbreaks in schools is having a devastating impact. Getting a high enough vaccination rate amongst teenagers is vital to enable secondary schools to start functioning normally again, including allowing all the extra-curricular activities that are still impossible or significantly reduced to go back to normal. The effects of the pandemic on this generation of teens is already awful and a vaccination programme is the only way to stop it from getting worse and start counteracting all the damage done in the last 16 months.

AIBU?

The UK has donated far more to COVAX than the EU so proportionately, we are morally fine. Also it is disturbing to hear of the millions of vaccines being binned in other countries due to myriad of reasons (inc. transportation difficulties and vaccine refusal)

Covax needs vaccines not money , we aren't part of the EU so your point is irrelevant surely? Plus in date vaccines aren't being destroyed.

There is no way of getting enough vaccines to the whole world that to share the production recipe with local pharmas, with local manufacturers, and start making it in most of the reactors and facilities available worldwide
By producing it only on the patent owner facility or just a few facilities, it will take years to get to everyone in the world. Surely it will not be done by the end of this year

This is very true but it will take many years to build facilities and train people.
For our own security, we need to get vaccinating everyone - look at India? they are controlling the India variant now, vaccinations and isolations.

God forbid a vaccine resistant CV should appear.

Id say we probably need to vaccinate them eventually so maybe a compromise of vaccinate ur teenagers slowly but also send some abroad? I don't know. If it gets approved for primary school aged kids and younger that feels like less of a priority to me

@MushMonster

Seriously, holidays abroad are not more important than being able to attend school without self isolating every time a pupil tests positive!

Well it's not just about holidays though is it? It's keeping an industry open that is struggling, keeping people in jobs, increasing tourism and spending in other countries as well as our own.

However, you also may not have seen some rather dramatic threads on here where people have been literally proclaiming that they cannot cope anymore without a holiday abroad and must get to a beach ASAP.

Not being part of the EU is irrelevant, my point was just to compare our performance compared to other much larger entities.

If we’re looking at minimising risk and maximising benefit on a global scale (within the current situation, not some ideal), then of course UK children should not be vaccinated.

I’m a pro-vaxxer, a scientist and I work for pharma (a vaccine-maker). However, I disagree with vaccinating children against CV-19, unless CEV. For adults, the risk/benefit profile is positive in favour of vaccination but that’s not the case for children.

So not only do we put them at risk, we also deprive adults in other countries who would benefit. It’s morally questionable on two counts. Not to mention the fact that we shouldn’t be vaccinating children when there are adults refusing vaccination for spurious reasons.

And ultimately, it would be benefit the UK more if adults overseas are vaccinated, as this will help reduce the transmission of variants and allow international travel to open up again.

I’ve heard of children with tracheostomy’s that haven’t been allowed in school for over a year.
If it helps them, and others like them, get back into education I think we should offer it.

@NutellaEllaElla

The UK has donated far more to COVAX than the EU so proportionately, we are morally fine. Also it is disturbing to hear of the millions of vaccines being binned in other countries due to myriad of reasons (inc. transportation difficulties and vaccine refusal).

Just an outright lie. Germany and the US have both donated more.

I am concerned we (obviously) don't have any long term studies into the safety of these vaccines. If someone had told me 2 years ago that I would agree to have a new vaccine in these circumstances I'd have laughed. I am vaccinated because of my job - I'd probably still be holding off otherwise. I am therefore very concerned that at some point I will feel forced to allow my child to be vaccinated. It cannot be compared to consenting to flu vaccine which has proven safety record over a long time. At some point there will be a huge amount of at least moral pressure on parents.

Of course keeping industries going is very important. Nothing wrong with using the facilities within the very same country you live in.
At least you live in Monaco or The Vatican, there will plenty of places you have not seen yet.

@NutellaEllaElla

Not being part of the EU is irrelevant, my point was just to compare our performance compared to other much larger entities.

The EU isn't a country, so as well as your comment being wrong, its also not a fair comparison.

The govt has allowed no vaccines to leave our shores, its vaccines produced in other countries that have gone to Dev countries.

Johnson talks a very good policy :(

AZ is a Swedish/UK private company and took the decision to offer the vaccine at cost.

www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/how-many-covid-19-vaccines-has-the-uk-donated/

In my case, my worries are about the evolution of the virus.
I have no worries about long term effects for vaccines. In general, if there is any effect it happens straight away after the vaccination.
I am worried about the virus becoming more spread between the children (because there is no other population to infect at the time) and making them sick. Either directly or by weaking or altering their immune system, see PIMS-TS for example. It happens in a very small percentage of children, but it has happened on children that had no symptoms when exposed to the virus.

‘secure your own oxygen mask before helping others" doesn’t seem relevant in this case of supply and demand.

Think the more ethical things to do be for governments and businesses to find ways to increase vaccine supply to countries with low vaccination rates. Seems v unlikely to happen.

@MushMonster

In my case, my worries are about the evolution of the virus. I have no worries about long term effects for vaccines. In general, if there is any effect it happens straight away after the vaccination. I am worried about the virus becoming more spread between the children (because there is no other population to infect at the time) and making them sick. Either directly or by weaking or altering their immune system, see PIMS-TS for example. It happens in a very small percentage of children, but it has happened on children that had no symptoms when exposed to the virus.

We need a sense of proportion here, CV posses a tiny risk to children compared to say Measles Meningitis Pneumonia.

Where as a new vaccine resistant variant is highly likely, that will kill millions more, inc effecting children.

Exactly Blue - one country has donated more than a large group of countries many times our size.

I do not agree that measles or meningitis poses a higher risk to our children at present than covid, precisely because they ARE vaccinated against it.
We will not be out of it till everyone is vaccinated, and I am rather positive that this will include children indeed.

Under no circumstances should healthy children be vaccinated, especially with this vaccine. I do not want to sacrifice my children's health for the good of others

Covid has never been a risk to children like measles and meningitis. What a weird comment.

@NutellaEllaElla

Exactly Blue - one country has donated more than a large group of countries many times our size.

Still bollocks though.

For those that say covid doesn’t affect this age group, yes it does, albeit they may not need hospital treatment, this age group is being affected

Not only be catching covid ( and what parent wants their child to get ill?) but also be spreading it amongst those not vaccinated ( for whatever reason) and for causing whole year groups to self isolate thus affection their education

Personally I think we vaccinate here first, then do others, especially those who choose to spend money on space programmes, and corrupt governments rather than looking after their own

@DinosaurDiana

I’ve heard of children with tracheostomy’s that haven’t been allowed in school for over a year. If it helps them, and others like them, get back into education I think we should offer it.

This is a good point. I suppose vulnerable children who couldn’t have the vaccine would be safer to return to school if other children had been vaccinated (I assume that means the child couldn’t have a vaccine themselves).

The Pfizer vaccine isn't great for use in the most vulnerable countries due to its storage requirements. So I'm minded to think that could be given to teens.

I think this is a very important point. Teens won't be having the AZ one which I think is the cheapest and easiest to store. There will be excess doses of this one to send to other countries.

@MushMonster

I do not agree that measles or meningitis poses a higher risk to our children at present than covid, precisely because they ARE vaccinated against it. We will not be out of it till everyone is vaccinated, and I am rather positive that this will include children indeed.

Vaccinating children in order to protect us, is a totally different ethical question.

I think we are vaccinating children to protect them. They do catch it, and there is no telling of how it will evolve. It has spread on human hosts only for less than 2 years now, and look at what it has created.

The vaccine on older groups is protecting those vaccinated and shielding the ones waiting to be vaccinated, which is great. But I want mine to be fully protected too indeed.

@MushMonster

The vaccine on older groups is protecting those vaccinated and shielding the ones waiting to be vaccinated, which is great. But I want mine to be fully protected too indeed.

We need to be vaccinating those billions around the world that have not had, nor will have a vaccine any time soon.

If we do not, there is the very real danger CV will mutate into a vaccine resistant strain and we will be back to March 2020.

I totally agree, we need manufacturing sites around the globe to help do this but in the meantime we just need to get a move on.