To look beyond university rankings.

[Miztermann]

DC is in Year 12 so we're looking at universities. His predicted grades are likely to be A*'s and A's so he is aiming high. All the universities on his current shortlist are Russell Group, with aspirational entrance requirements, but some are 'ranked' more highly than others in the league tables, and the one he favours the most is ranked the lowest - e.g. 201-250 in the QS world subject rankings and 35 in the Guardian subject rankings. But he favours it because it is one of the best places to go for his sport, which is very important to him.

It seems to me that the university rankings are weighted towards research rather than teaching, so AIBU to think they're not worth paying much attention to at first degree level? If he later wants to do a postgraduate research degree somewhere more prestigious then he can move when he graduates. But if he goes straight into employment, I do wonder if there are many recruiters who only focus on graduates from the top tier institutions. That would have been true in the past, but how about now?

YAdefinitelyNBU in my opinion, although MN has a real bias towards a small% of income at the top of the tree, and you will have people talking about 'the top 4 law firms only recruit from' or 'top hedge fund managers' and so forth.

Like all things, whereas it is valuable to have that input if that is what you are aiming for, obviously 99% of graduates aren't expecting to be, or even hoping to be head hunted into one of those tiny number of jobs.

My opinion is the most important factor at University is being somewhere you are happy. If you are not happy at University, you might not last the course anyway, and you will certainly not thrive. Of course, for many, it is difficult to know what will make them happy at University when they are 16 / 17 and never lived away from home before. You have an advantage in that your ds has a big part of his life that he can feed in to better at some universities than others.

Yes, people generally will value a 2:1 in English from Durham above a 2:1 in English from {don't even know if such a place exists, but} University College, Grimsby, but it sounds as if your ds is still looking at reasonably ranked courses and not somewhere you'd discourage him going to ?

Once you get to the Russell Group pretty much all of them are going to have the same benefits long term, university rankings change every year, mine was 3rd in the country when I graduated and is usually 7th or 8th, plus it differs depending on which list you look at. If you care about these things, the reputation is what matters and it doesn't distinguish between a few places on a world league chart. Encourage your child to go where they will fit in and be happy.

Oh and my uni was ranked in the 50s for my particular subject, noone has ever cared, they hear the name of a prestigious uni and couldn't care less what placing it had for one subject.

I think the subject rankings matter if you are passionate about the subject.
If you are passionate about something else and the Uni overall has a good ranking it doesn't matter as much.

@lakesummer

I think the subject rankings matter if you are passionate about the subject. If you are passionate about something else and the Uni overall has a good ranking it doesn't matter as much.

Thanks. I'd say he's more passionate about his sport than his subject - but he does enjoy his subject and is competitive so wants to aim high academically and get a highly paid job that uses his degree. We know of others who have turned down the likes of Durham and Imperial to go to this particular university for its superior sport provision - I suppose what I'm after is a sense that employers will be ranking applicants first as individuals and not first by their university rankings.

What subject does he want to do, and what career?
You’re somewhat right - top tier unis require more independent work and thinking. But that’s why they take the best and brightest.
As pp have mentioned though the ‘overall prestige’ of uni is more important. ‘Russell Group ‘ is a self appointed term there are plenty of unis like Bath which are very highly regarded and not part of it. This is different to unis which are ex-polys, unis which are new/not very highly ranked/more vocational focused. I’d the uni offers more vocational courses as well as academic then it’s a safe bet to say it’s not very prestigious for an academic subject.
But then again can’t advise more unless you tell us what subject ...

p.s by independent work and thinking meaning that while you can ask questions about specific parts you don’t understand you’re expected to figure most of it out yourself. Lecturers are leaders in their fields but not the best teachers. Tutors are generally good however

I went to small non RG uni. It really depends on the course. Mine was so shit. Badly organised, teaching was pretty bad because of it and student satisfaction was somewhere on 30% if I remember correctly. But the same uni had another course, which was well run and well rated by students.
The uni ranked quite high for small one when I was about to apply.

Studentroom has lots of students your DC can ask for personal experience so I would absolutely throw that into the mix when deciding.

It depends on the subject and the career to a great degree to be honest. If he's doing a subject like Law then, truthfully, proximity to London or Bristol will be more useful that a high ranking because firms base so much weight on having good work experience and good exposure. If it's a subject like engineering then he might be better off looking outside of the RG altogether depending on certain specialisms and what the universities are currently doing. It's worth considering that if he goes somewhere with a high level of sport then other people might have done that too - and he may not end up getting to actually be on the team (obviously that's dependent on what sport he does). I went to a very sporty uni with great facilities, very rugby heavy though - plenty of people who played county or academy rugby didn't get onto the first or second teams. It's also worth considering a million other factors like living costs and bursary/grants/scholarships available at each university, the support the university offers (my university had an agreement with the council that students could only sign up to the on-campus GP, who worked 3 days each week to serve approx 20,000 students - no one could ever access healthcare), module choices (being able to choose electives that you enjoy will massively boost your grade), study abroad or work placement opportunities etc. Every RG university will offer a high calibre academic experience (and so will a lot of non-RG universities too), every university will have a high level of sporting opportunities and facilities.

He should be looking at course content, student satisfaction surveys, cost of living, layout of the university...

Pastoral care is also important to look at. Some unis provide much more "life" support to their students than others.

Plus, to throw in another thought - if he wants to continue his sport at a high level, that doesn't have to be actually at the University.
I live in a large City and University students often join clubs or teams that are part of the City and nothing to do with the University.
So if he likes the course / campus at one university but it put off by them not having a strong swimming / rugby / athletics / lacrosse / football / hockey / squash / karate / dodgeball / whatever sport it is team, he can join the local clubs in the City / Town he moves to.

My DH works in a very competitive field and is in charge of hiring people. University name plays a big role, it won't let you walk into a job but they don't have time to interview or even read the applications of everyone so only top university degrees get a look in. I would look at stats specific to your DS's degree choice about where they tend to go on to afterwards.

That doesn't mean he should choose his uni only based on employment prospects - it's all personal choice and that might not be his priority. Just be aware it makes a big difference.

If your DS is looking at A*/As in his A-levels then I think employers would naturally expect him to be going to a university in the top 20-25 in the UK, and not all of these are RG, eg Bath which has excellent sports facilities.
If it’s significantly lower ranked either as a uni or for his course, then I guess a prospective employer would want to understand why he had chosen to go there.

But ultimately, it’s for DS to live there for 3 years and he must give himself the best chance of going somewhere that he’ll be happy.

I think employers would naturally expect him to be going to a university in the top 20-25 in the UK

Thanks, yes, it ticks that box in the Guardian, Times and QS rankings which are the three I've looked at.

The course entry requirements for his preferred uni are AAA as opposed to AAA at Oxbridge, Durham, UCL, Imperial, Warwick. We don't yet know what his predicted grades will be, but based on performance to date somewhere between AAAA and AA*AA.

I don't want to mention the uni and subject because I can easily get reviews for those specific things elsewhere - for this thread I'm just focusing on the principle of the rankings. Having looked at the methodology for each ranking system, I think they're subjective and self-reinforcing, but that's by the by if employers really do care about them.

He's likely to go into an analytical field, so the sort of employers I'm thinking of are consultancy firms, banks, FTSE 100 companies that rely on analytics, etc. There are no shortage of jobs in those areas, so I expect he will be snapped up by someone, but if some doors are to be closed in his face because he didn't go to a "top 5" uni then it would be helpful to know in advance.

Correction: somewhere between A A A A and A A A A.

Mumsnet formatting issue with the stars

You should get him to have a look at the alumni and honorary graduates for the university too. I work at a postgraduate university which isn't well known to the average person but it is very well known by the employers our students would be hoping to work for. Usually the honorary graduates are CEOs of companies we work closely with. They either sponsor their employees for study or sponsor research (often both) so although Joe Bloggs wouldn't think anything of it, it's a big green tick for recruiters because they know the university and half the managers have degrees from there.

If the entry requirements are A* A A, then that doesn't sound like a low ranking ex polytechnic to me.

I have two degrees the most recent of which I got in 2017 from a Russell Group but prior to that I went to a tiny Scottish University which provide their degrees through colleges. I picked that university because of the availability to get lots and lots of practical experience throughout the year and not just during the summer for 2 weeks like other universities tend to offer. I graduated with the equivalent of 6 months paid experience plus 4 months unpaid over a 4 year degree. The university at the time was only just becoming recognised but a degree from that particular department is highly regarded for practical skills and preparing for work. I also had a lot of fun there (not the typical uni experience in terms of partying and nights out though) and made some great friends and I was super employable afterwards. It's currently unranked in the list I found so it won't even give you a picture of what an experience that course is, as it is the department is very approachable and encourages people to contact them and they have a great social media presence.

Conversely the only reason I went to the Russell Group was because the masters I wanted to do was only offered at two universities in the UK both in the south of England and I went with the choice that offered modules I was more interested in. Of the two, the none Russell Group would actually a better, more hands on experience and made me more employable than the masters did so definitely look beyond the listings and contact any and all departments. I'd also be looking at how prolific the lecturers are at publishing and what their interests are and how they compare to your son's. If they have an active research output with a shared interest from your son it means there's a chance he could get himself involved with various projects if it's that sort of area.

you will have people talking about 'the top 4 law firms only recruit from

Which is categorically rubbish as the top 5 law firms do a lot to increase diversity (although if it's anything like my employer, they do ok on race/sex/university diversity but everyone still seems to come from a fairly affluent background).

I am a bit of a snob when it comes to universities, but I do think it matters a lot what you want to study. If you want to do marketing or business, an ex-poly is probably better. For example, Coventry University seems to do some cracking courses. If you want to do something more traditional like history, I'd be looking at older universities that offer good history courses like Southampton or York.

And there are very good universities that rank much more highly than you'd expect - eg Loughborough. Nobody is going to look down their nose at someone graduating from there!

I also don't think employers are particularly bothered about rankings, they are looking at people who can do the job and will fit in.

If his course is data analytics and the uni is decent (as evidence by its ranking and admission requirements) any choice, for ‘name’ would be fine.

However ‘data analytics’ is a wide field. I’d advise making sure that the course modules cover all chosen career paths. There a lot of these courses that cover the basics of statistics, practical use in software (such as Tableau) and pad the degree out with business modules. While you may get a job as a data analyst this bars you from the more lucrative roles requiring someone with a strong mathematical background and programming experience. Many companies prefer hiring STEM graduates and training them up rather than people with a data analytics degree.
Of course if this is a top uni the course is likely to have a good amount of theory but just thought it might help you décidez

Also to add - a lot of niche employers may interact more with top unis. I went to the top in my field (Finance) and a lot of high frequency trading companies, boutique IB firms etc came to our campus career fairs and took CV’s directly.
If you DS does his research however he should also be able to find these opportunities so not a major barrier IMO.

Could be not go to Oxbridge with those grades? Perhaps he wouldn’t want to as they’re not for everyone.

Rankings do change, but the top unis generally end up in the top say 25 in the league table.

I suppose it’s where he feels most comfortable going really. Somewhere that he will settle and if he has an idea now then I’d go with it, as long as it’s with the RG uni selection.

If he’s that bright then obviously push him to go to a former polytechnic that’s 99 on the list, because he can clearly do better than that. Equally Oxbridge wouldn’t be suitable for everyone, even if they’re academically able. I’ve know a girl turn a place from Oxford down.

dont push him I meal lol

My son is just finishing at a Russell university and his feedback would be that the intake was fairly evenly split between wealthy foreign students who tended to move as a group and large numbers who came from the main grammar schools which feed into the university. It was pretty exclusionary really and he hasn't particularly enjoyed it. A few vulnerable students fell by the wayside and group work was really problematic as the other students didn't want to come out of their cliques.
Student feedback would be very important to me.