To look beyond university rankings.

[Miztermann]

DC is in Year 12 so we're looking at universities. His predicted grades are likely to be A*'s and A's so he is aiming high. All the universities on his current shortlist are Russell Group, with aspirational entrance requirements, but some are 'ranked' more highly than others in the league tables, and the one he favours the most is ranked the lowest - e.g. 201-250 in the QS world subject rankings and 35 in the Guardian subject rankings. But he favours it because it is one of the best places to go for his sport, which is very important to him.

It seems to me that the university rankings are weighted towards research rather than teaching, so AIBU to think they're not worth paying much attention to at first degree level? If he later wants to do a postgraduate research degree somewhere more prestigious then he can move when he graduates. But if he goes straight into employment, I do wonder if there are many recruiters who only focus on graduates from the top tier institutions. That would have been true in the past, but how about now?

[quote LateAtTate]@SarahAndQuack when I went to uni (not that long ago) the best researchers weren’t the best ‘teachers’ in sense that they weren’t necessarily the best at supporting students at various levels of understanding.
We had a mix of lecturers hired solely for teaching and ‘superstar’ researchers. The latter’s courses were more ‘exciting’ in terms of content and big ideas but their explanations were not the most thorough. If you didn’t come to the lectures prepared with pre-readings or relied solely on lecture notes you’d be left very behind. The ones with a more ‘teaching focus’ were better at getting things across at a more digestible format.
Having said that though good researchers don’t normally teach foundational classes. It’s usually third year courses or electives, where everyone’s expected to have the basics and the module is more specialised....[/quote]
I think that's pretty representative in terms of who was good and who wasn't.

I think it's unfair to say good researchers don't teach first years. But, sorry, I am probably derailing by pursuing this.

He should aim to go to a uni where he feels he will thrive, for a whole combination of reasons. My DS went to a small uni, not widely known outside of the region it's in and he's done brilliantly there. He has one year left and he already has a lovely full time job offer for when he graduates next year after doing an internship at a multinational accounting firm this spring.

My DD just finished her first year at a small but very prestigious women's university and it really suits her. It's where she wanted to go, which makes all of the difference.

This poem by Kahlil Gibran really helped me through seeing them off to uni:

On Children

Good luck to your son!

@SarahAndQuack I didn’t say that they didn’t teach undergrads - I said that they didn’t generally teach the foundational courses (for example ‘introduction to something’ vs ‘specialised or advanced area of something’). There are only so many hours in the day so surely having people who have specialised in something teach it is the most efficient way of using their time. Also not all research is created equal...some of it takes up more resource than others.
As an undergrad the discussions I had with my professors were what broadened my intellectual horizons...
Anyway you’re right about detailing the thread so I won’t go into this loads 😂

My experience from working in a range of non RG and RG Uni's is that some / many of the RG have been relying on their reputation for many years and are quite behind the curve of other not so famous/ established institutions in relation to teaching practice, student support and other important factors

I am beginning to get that impression. DD's course director (at an RG university) is not well liked by the students. Some of the students approached her because they were struggling with the workload and feeling demotivated, and wanted some guidance. They were told that they were adults and to get on with it and expected to do their own research without having their hands held.

I have read that some of the universities with lower entry requirements give the students more guidance and support, but I don't know if this is true.

[quote LateAtTate]@SarahAndQuack I didn’t say that they didn’t teach undergrads - I said that they didn’t generally teach the foundational courses (for example ‘introduction to something’ vs ‘specialised or advanced area of something’). There are only so many hours in the day so surely having people who have specialised in something teach it is the most efficient way of using their time. Also not all research is created equal...some of it takes up more resource than others.
As an undergrad the discussions I had with my professors were what broadened my intellectual horizons...
Anyway you’re right about detailing the thread so I won’t go into this loads 😂[/quote]

I never said anything about undergrads did I?

Everyone who teaches at university level is specialised, professor or not (I don't want to be rude, but are we perhaps talking cross purposes about what a professor is in a UK context?).

I think there is a misconception on this thread about how research prestige intersects with teaching at university. It is absolutely true, as several people have said, that universities are ranked on research quality, and a higher-ranked university will generally have more starry researchers, especially at the high levels. It is also true that being a good researcher isn't much indication of how good you are at teaching.

But much teaching, at any UK university, will be carried out by people way below the rank of professor. These days, there is just no way you'll go to any of the sorts of universities the OP is describing, and find you're being taught by someone who isn't good at both teaching and research. The postdoc teaching the third year elective at Loughborough in 2021 probably taught the MPhil and second year courses at Oxford in 2020, and maybe the second years at Nottingham the year before that. The professor at Nottingham who's teaching the second year dissertations was maybe a reader at Cambridge last year, teaching their third years. And so on.

I think it's absolutely sensible to worry about funding for labs, and for opportunities, and for teaching hours and library support; I think it's sensible to think whether the teaching style will support you as an individual. But I don't believe universities with better research rankings give students exposure to more starry research, really.

@RampantIvy

My experience from working in a range of non RG and RG Uni's is that some / many of the RG have been relying on their reputation for many years and are quite behind the curve of other not so famous/ established institutions in relation to teaching practice, student support and other important factors

I am beginning to get that impression. DD's course director (at an RG university) is not well liked by the students. Some of the students approached her because they were struggling with the workload and feeling demotivated, and wanted some guidance. They were told that they were adults and to get on with it and expected to do their own research without having their hands held.

I have read that some of the universities with lower entry requirements give the students more guidance and support, but I don't know if this is true.

@RampantIvy Sadly I think that this is quite common, I hope that your daughter is able to get support from student services and or the SU. Does she have a personal tutor that she can speak to? Some RG and other research intensive Uni's have been able to rely on admitting high achieving students who can cope with working very independently and still getting good outcomes re their degree results. This is beginning to change but many of the Uni's that have had to work harder to attract students often have done a lot of work on sudent support, and student experience and are ahead of the game in those areas. A lot of the student experience comes down to the culture of the Institution and that's a very individual and personal fit.

@SarahAndQuack sorry I meant first years, not undergrads!
And yes, I mostly agree. Of course the research ranking depends on the specific department and research groupb

DD managed to change her personal tutor a few weeks ago @RedRocketGirl. Her new tutor is lovely. In the first nearly two years she only spoke to her original personal tutor once, and he was useless.